FinalHavenLarp.com

****DISCLAIMER**** roleplaying and character concept trump all, if you want to roleplay a level 1 old man with no skills to speak of because you think it would be fun then I urge you to do just that. this is just mechanical breakdown and personal observation and opinion. I urge you to disagree and do whatever you please.

what do you prefer?
-tough love
-abuse

I have not done one of these in a while so I figured I would get around to it. I consider it a kind of "state of the game". in my unique position I have been able to see nearly ever position of this game, its system, its lore, etc. I also have a deep love of games of all kinds, their mechanics, their successes, and their faults (except for sports games as I find them boring)

Paths:

-Healer:
thanks to recent changes to them and the ability to be uninterruptable given the right set of skills I think they are in a great place right now. I realize it is a role not given much credit but I think I can safely say that without healers we would all be dead not much else to say here, I think they're great

-Empath:
outshined by rogue because both are burst DPS classes with built in utility with not much survivability. because of this people prefer the better of the two, in this case rogue. I will go over that better in the rogue details but for now empath. they are required to raise dead thus making them a necessity though not preferred, the fact they can throw their damage is both a boon and a loss. they get fantastic offensive utility skills in the form of magic fear and magic lash at advanced, and shatter and magic sleep at master. to balance this out they melt in close up fights but should have the tools to escape. . .maybe.

-Sage:
A personal favorite, and second best melee path in the game, but brings SOOO much more to everything else then a fighter. if you want to play a fighter but think it might be boring, play a sage! as a sage you can get nearly as many combat reflexes as a fighter, the same armor as a fighter, your choice of a shield or two weapons (a fighter cannot) what do you trade? you don't have rage, but that's a good thing, and you don't have Parry. . .that would be bad, but is not that bad these days. what do you get? the utility, versatility, and plot solving powers of a god! some minor downsides include a knockout at advanced that serves only to be swapped out for something else. a damage steroid that's borderline useless. and too many good master level skills. . .but that's a good problem.

-Jack of all trades:
MASTER OF NONE. great addition to the game, many a good skill choice, awesome versatility. . .please choose a different path unless you ABSOLUTLY want to play this one.

-Wizard:
very fun skills. great team play through potions. and can be quite the show stopper with their massive spells. however personally, potions are like crafters in MMO's, they spend a lot of their time doing nothing just to help the group. and even with the recent spell changes to wizards I still find that they just don't do enough in a combat to be effective, and provide no down time benefit like a sage or healer. if you really want a few spells or potions I would recommend picking a different path and picking the arcanist discipline. but if you really want to play a master wizard or alchemist, who can bend the will of time and create storms of magic, no other class comes close.

-Warrior:
. . .you are soak, get up their and soak it. . .good job. . .what you were expecting to do more? HA! your fully healed so get back up there and soak it. . .see you again in a few seconds.

-Rogue: OP
just in front of empath as best burst DPS class we have the Rogue. now many people mistake empath for having the best burst because of the higher numbers (30 magic and above) however the empath has a lot of wasted time, and even the 30 does not allow you to move, and battle is a very fast and fluid thing. here is a basic tip. too much time for extra damage is bad, the bigger the count per damage the bigger the waste, especially when your attack you spent the last minute and a half prepping and charging gets resisted -_- rogue is in the sweet spot of charge time/ damage ratio. with the added bonus being the multitude of ways it can further increase its damage and decrease its charge times. so better burst then empath. . .how about survivability? respectable medium armor. the ability to duel wield for close problems, a hamstring for escape. the best spell and missile avoidance skills in the game being dodge, dive for cover, and the ability to even evade lash. they also have the negligible ability to knockout, useless without vorpal, and pick locks and deal with traps, I guess it cannot all be great, but at least you can swap those skills out.
in summary its this great blend of burst, evades, damage, survivability, and utility that make rogues the king they are today. just like in armored warfare of today as we discovered tanks with nothing but armor being useless (warriors) and tanks having great guns but no armor being obsolete (empaths) we created a great combination of both, the MBT or main battle tank (Rogue). . .OP


In summation: this is all my personal opinion and should be treated as such. and as such you have the ability to completely disagree with and ignore it. . .just as I can your opinion

-ARK!!!!!

I have hired a group of cult de programmers to help you get the flawed DPS argument, you keep using to indicate what path is cooler than another, out of your brain. Its doesnt woprk in a LARP, and barely workes in MMPOGs. They will be kidnapping you shortly.

because of this people prefer the better of the two, in this case rogue.

picking the EASIER one to play doesnt mean they pick them because its "better".

as a sage you can get nearly as many combat reflexes as a fighter, the same armor as a fighter

doesnt make them even close to an equal to, or second to, a fighter.

your choice of a shield or two weapons (a fighter cannot) what do you trade?

Incorrect, a warrior can even have both.

just in front of empath as best burst DPS class we have the Rogue.

FH havent doesnt have DPS classes, since they technically have classes or DPS(its a MMPOG concept)
Ignoring that, emaths are the best at what they were created to do...howitzer like combat support. Rogues are closer to mortar teams, less damage, more mobility.

they also have the negligible ability to knockout, useless without vorpal

not. Its only hindered by heavy armor wearers, which is generally warriors. making it effective against 4 or 5 paths.

in summary its this great blend of burst, evades, damage, survivability, and utility that make rogues the king they are today. just like in armored warfare of today as we discovered tanks with nothing but armor being useless (warriors) and tanks having great guns but no armor being obsolete (empaths) we created a great combination of both, the MBT or main battle tank (Rogue). . .OP

Uhm...you do know a MBT...is still a tank ...right?
Also, I will let you build a rogue anytime and come face Kaylan one on one. Lets see how effective this king of yours is.

and no i didnt re read for spelling errors, suffer!

warrior cannot get duel wield without a discipline, im not comparing the classes with disciplines, this is stand alone.

the balancing point for the warrior vs rogue debate has always been in a tiny box of a room with no doors face to face a warrior will beat a rogue, to that I say they damn well better. however, in real world battles in the FH setting rogue is just better. however at the end of the day it comes down to player skill, even in a box of a room I can beat a bad warrior as a rogue. though I am tempted to at least try some CQC as warrior vs rogue nothing else just to prove once and for all that rogues: op

the defensive skills a warrior gets over sage are useless to *ME*
-hold ground: useless skill, you end up in negs either way, and you cannot move, anyone who knows me knows this kills the skill for me.
-endurance: be smart and don't drop into negs, a placeholder skill for a swap out.
-defensive matrix: this skill is so over rated it will take me some time to list all its flaws and problems, so here we go:

-you do no damage, a warrior should at least do damage before they die.
-only works from the front, so there is an easy way to get around it
-only trash does 1, just kill it
-use of a shield will mitigate far more damage and let you continue to do damage
-anything swinging 2 or higher will just negate your skill and your still doing no damage
-etc.

-rage: in my years of playing FH I was always a warrior (till recently) I only used rage my first year, because I was new and didn't know better. there are better alternatives to rage.
-parry: the only real loss, but if something is doing massive melee hits you probably don't want to be in front of it anyway, it does not protect against the real killer calls, the various vorpal knockouts, sleeps, big channels, etc. and it does not protect your back. its a great niche skill, but anything it protects you against can be easily avoided.

I think the reason I hate warrior so much is because so many of the skills are useless to me. if you are a halfway decent fighter your skill is going to protect you more then the skills will, and at that point why even play a fighter? that's why these days if I want to rock a melee character I roll a sage, you can have all the fun in combat that you normally would, AND. . .
. . .
. . .
NOT BE TOTALLY USELESS for the rest of the time that combat is not taking place

as always, feel free to disagree and ignore, I shall do the same

I would even do the face off in a wide open field. As long as the warrior can SEE the rogue, the rogue does not stand a chance, assuming equal player fighting skills.

the defensive skills a warrior gets over sage are useless to *ME*

I think the reason I hate warrior so much is because so many of the skills are useless to me.

My issue is that this is he first time you have stated they are usless to you, instead of useless in general. I dont like every one, but many are useful even if only situational.

-hold ground: useless skill, you end up in negs either way, and you cannot move, anyone who knows me knows this kills the skill for me.

I have used it twice...ever. Once in the IRC chat when Talana and Matts dark elf shale tried to sleep Nathanael, I saw em coming and was sitting on a bench with feet on the groung and was hit with sleep. they were flabbergasted when it didnt work and there was a row aboutit until i showed em the rules.
Second time was in a cave to save my own ass while fighting chris and mike i think with by back to a wall in a dead end. worked until help arrived.
Chris used it once to hold of NPCs for like 3 hours at the event Tonia and I ran years back. He was in the door and i think everone else was playing cards or something. THose NPCs would have leveld that cabin had it not been for that skill.
Useless no, rarely useful...yes.

-endurance: be smart and don't drop into negs, a placeholder skill for a swap out.

Smart has nothing to do with it. Even a rogue hit twice for big damage would be crying about not having this if fighting far from help. Given that a warrior can get improved version where my soak is xx PLUS 2 minute2 where no matter the damage you do you cant kill me. Id say thats damn handy to have in a big fight where the warrior id defending the archers, and empaths, and wizards and healers and rogues...oh my!

-defensive matrix: this skill is so over rated it will take me some time to list all its flaws and problems, so here we go:

Yeah not a fan.

-rage: in my years of playing FH I was always a warrior (till recently) I only used rage my first year, because I was new and didn't know better. there are better alternatives to rage.

again, not a fan. due to the new silly restriction I havent used it since I played the orc...over a decade ago.

-parry: the only real loss, but if something is doing massive melee hits you probably don't want to be in front of it anyway, it does not protect against the real killer calls, the various vorpal knockouts, sleeps, big channels, etc. and it does not protect your back. its a great niche skill, but anything it protects you against can be easily avoided.

And the rogue defends against disarm how? Aside from channels and packet sleep and such which it should not affect(vorpal KO not included since the skill is about nullifying an attack and SHOULD nulify such, in spite of the fact it doesnt due to semantics in the mechanics description), I think parry works great. If your a "fighter" and not in front of the things "doing massive melee hits", your a pointless "fighter" since that is where they are supposed to be.

if you are a halfway decent fighter your skill is going to protect you more then the skills will, and at that point why even play a fighter

This is about comfusing "fighter" and warrior. The warrior path PC is a trained and slilled battle field tactician. a "fighter" is anyone that runs into combat swinging a weapon instead of hanging back and doing damage from range. A rogue is a fighter, and so would a sage be. Neither can do what warriord do, and are supposed to do on a battle field. They would die trying because running aroungt HOPING to get lucky shots in, while a help to a warrior, doesnt kill bad guys unless the bad guys are mindless and/or outnumbered.

NOT BE TOTALLY USELESS for the rest of the time that combat is not taking place

THis assumes the only way to be useless outside of combat is to have a game mechanic skill to lean on...*cough CRUTCH cough*

agree on some things, disagree on most, well its good to see we have not changed

disarm is a very rarely used skill, and I always build characters to have some form of damage that can NEVER be taken away or stopped, such as fists, throwing rocks for one (you have infinite rocks) a basic channel, the essence boon channel, etc.

endurance is a useless skill because it only adds 1 minute to a base of 1 minute. now a warrior has determination, and I would assume a good warrior has a few potions handy. here are alternatives to endurance:
-if your getting low or in over your head RUN
-if you cannot run feign death, I mean actually, not the potion. most NPC's will either assume they got you or leave you alone, if they start to slit your throat endurance was not going to save you anyway.
-drink a potion, you have determination you can do that, wait till the coast is clear and run, or crawl, away.

back to parry, what does it really protect you from?
vorpal? if its 1 vorpal no point in parry, 2-3 is worth it but you can block it, if its 5 they should not get a chance to charge it, and you can block it fine with a weapon or shield anyway.
crush? if its 1 no point, 2-3 is once again worth it as you cannot block it, if its 5 don't let them charge it, just drink a BASIC POTION and block everything if its a problem.
sleep? no
vorpal knockout? no
charms? no
magic booms? no
spells? no
in the end it is a good skill but over rated for what it does, and I don't think it should be stronger or changed, I think its a good skill and fills its niche. I just don't think its the end all be all skill people make it out to be.

as always feel free to disagree and ignore, I shall do the same -Ark

disarm is a very rarely used skill,

The fact you think its rarely used is because you play runners/fighters and not warriors...i see it most every event, and more than once an event.

and I always build characters to have some form of damage that can NEVER be taken away or stopped, such as fists, throwing rocks for one (you have infinite rocks) a basic channel, the essence boon channel, etc.

Not sure how min/maxing your PC build is related to the discussion.
ALSO, fists can be taken away...rocks can be taken away...channels can be taken away..I will let you figure out how each is done.

endurance is a useless skill because it only adds 1 minute to a base of 1 minute.

I can COMPLETELY see how doubling your bleed out time has no use what so ever....wated...pointless...unless your also able to heal yourself up to beg 9 when no healer is present. I think thats every warrior....

-if your getting low or in over your head RUN

Right, absolutely...totally...because when your getting low...running is even FREQUENTLY an option. Not, unless your a hit and run rogue...sooo.... no wonder rogues dont have endurence and warriors do.

-if you cannot run feign death, I mean actually, not the potion. most NPC's will either assume they got you or leave you alone, if they start to slit your throat endurance was not going to save you anyway.

1) That tactic, while logically something that might work in the real world, can border on meta gaming since most players know that nearly all the NPCs are not killing blow/throat slit active/authorised. If it wasnt a game, that tactic would almost never work, especialy with humanoids who will just follow up and gut stab a foe to be sure...unless thier goal is mor a grab and dash mission
2)true, it wont stop a throat slit, but neither will the tactic. and IMPROVED endurence WILL let you avoid throat slit, and you cant get the improved version without the basic one.

-drink a potion, you have determination you can do that, wait till the coast is clear and run, or crawl, away.

adding that to the discussion is no different than adding skills from disciplines, remember?

back to parry, what does it really protect you from?

Well, lets see what the rule book says....

Parry/Avoid Blow – LP skill
A Warrior may spend 1 Life Point to reduce the damage delivered from any single frontal melee attack that has a number in the call to 0. This includes Knockout, Crush, Vorpal, Poison, etc. In addition, they may also parry frontal Disarm attacks.

seems it works on 6 different things. Only time its less effective is it its vorpal. Odd how the common view of it makes people thinks it not bad ass.

vorpal? if its 1 vorpal no point in parry, 2-3 is worth it

any vorpal attack over 1 is worth using parry on since it reduces damage

if its 5 they should not get a chance to charge it

kinda like the god like skill critical attack id say. not very potent if they cant charge it. Takes the wind right outta the rogues sails.
also, in combat you cant always tell who is charging what...if ya could rogues would be near useless...

and you can block it fine with a weapon or shield anyway.

MAYBE you can...and MAYBE you cant. the skill is for he times you cant physically block it and works great. Ten again the same is true about the crtit attacks you are always ranting about...they too can be blocked with whield and a weapon.

crush? if its 1 no point, 2-3 is once again worth it as you cannot block it, if its 5 don't let them charge it, just drink a BASIC POTION and block everything if its a problem.

see vorpal above...

and again...no spell check...read and suffer!

I think your confused about the FH combat setting:

it consists of anywhere from 1-3 NPC's, 2-6 if we are very lucky. fighting anywhere from 10-20 PC's, maybe more. situations may very, but this is the average. most of the time in an open area.

NPC's cannot charge skills in this type of situations, there are just to many PC's hitting you with various forms of damage to maintain any sort of charge. in this setting skills and paths work differently then how they do on paper.

blocking: becomes easy, NPC's in a target rich environment tend to just do random 1-2 swings at a person, not trying to out fight or kill them but just trying to spread the damage and include everyone in the encounter, this is VERY easy to block, im sure you know that.

warriors: their supposed 1v1 skills and superior CQC tactics are fairly moot, most NPC's are designed to fight multiple PC's so if a 1v1 did break out a monster would most likely be able to out soak a warrior. but in most battles there are so many PC's and so few NPC's that warriors don't have to fear getting focused, and if the play smart can avoid all damage altogether (attack an NPC in the back a few quick times then jump back to avoid the inevitable turn and counter swings, when they see you far away they usually turn away because someone else is hitting them in the back again)

rogues: win. with the mass of PC's, their short charges, and lack of NPC's its ridiculously easy to charge for 15 (or much less) seconds, run by and hit an NPC in the back for 12 (or more) damage and run away before they even did the calculation for taking the damage, rinse, repeat, win. even if an NPC has the urge to chase one down they can just hamstring it.

if FH took place in rapture (bioshock ftw) or a mansion where we just have cave like corridors, and the amount of NPC's was almost on par with the PC's so that individual NPC strength went down and individual target focus went up (more 1v1 in CQC) then I think warriors would start to shine.

In summation: the FH setting negates the supposed balance in the rules. some things are stronger, some things are weaker, that's just how it works in real world application.

As always feel free to disagree with and ignore, its all just my opinion. I shall do the same with yours

Ark

Ark wrote: im not comparing the classes with disciplines, this is stand alone.

I understand the need to analyze the paths and only the paths, but I do believe exceptions need to be made because people will max-min their builds and some consideration needs to be taken into account when analyzing path skills. For example, one should assume warriors will have a handful of healing potions to use with determination (I feel this is a safe assumption; potions are relatively cheap, or the 20 XP to bring in a couple of Heal 2s in an event is also cheap). Another example is an exception to "Rage Sucks," and that is barbarian's crush and swashbuckler's vorpal. A warrior swing for a constant 3 crush, or 3 vorpal with an 8 ft pool arm sitting behind a shield user is extremely powerful.

Ark wrote: if you are a halfway decent fighter your skill is going to protect you more then the skills will, and at that point why even play a fighter? that's why these days if I want to rock a melee character I roll a sage, you can have all the fun in combat that you normally would, AND. . .
. . .
. . .
NOT BE TOTALLY USELESS for the rest of the time that combat is not taking place

Yes I agree with this greatly if one wants to be a sword and board fighter (there is too much extra damage for a two handed fighters in the warrior path for this statement to remain true for a two weapon fighters). And any halfway decent fighter would agree. Although, I will say I understand the argument that I do not care about plot and I want the extra soak and parry over helping out my companions with plot.

Ark wrote:-if you cannot run feign death, I mean actually, not the potion. most NPC's will either assume they got you or leave you alone, if they start to slit your throat endurance was not going to save you anyway.

This is shenanigans, and if this is not illegal, it should be, and it should be punished harshly when caught with a punishment similar or worse than, to send an individual straight to chip draw no exceptions. (this should help balance out warrior and rogue a little bit, although I think it will just force more people to spend the extra 20xp on determination if they have not already.)


I think you guys are missing some points when comparing classes that need to be considered
1) PvP balance
2)PCvNPC balance (Recently addressed although I did not read the post until I was done with this post)
3)PCvPlot
4)Class envy, For example does a Warrior feel that a rogue is doing their job better.

I think there is a decent amount of PvP balance. The fighter paths warrior, rogue, empath, all could argue a situation/build in which they could beat someone with one of the other paths.
I think there is some PCvNPC imbalance and this imbalance stems from the types of encounters faught. There are many battles where there are 3-5 NPC vs 20 PCs, and these are the battles where Rogues thrive and warriors do nothing but serve as a distraction for the rogues and empaths to do the 100+ points of damage to each of the monster. And yes ones and twos fail in comparison to 8 rogues striking for 12s. Now 10PCs v 10NPCs. Is where warriors thrive because everyone is fighting and the extra soak and the extra damage of the warrior really increases their survivability. But these encounters are rare based on my personal experience meaning it seems like Rogues are more fit to fight NPCs.. Also respawn encounters do not count as equal amount of PC v NPC encounters because respawning gives time for charged skills to recharge.
PC v Plot I know this is a consideration but I am not sure how it is coordinated into balance.
PC envy- something else to consider

Now some personal notes about the game.

I REALLY like that a player can be any path in the game and still be a melee fighter, with varying degrees of effectiveness. This is a huge pulling point to the game.

Rogue dodge is Really good and a 10 second cool down is amazing considering a rogue can reload dodge, and charge a 12 CS and strike before an empath or an archer can recharge the highest damage abilities. A rogue can almost reload their skill before I can release, draw, noch, and loose another arrow without charging any abilities, and considerations should be made to making this a 1 minute reload time to balance this skill.

I think Determination is one of the best Warrior skills in the game and most people if given the choice to have one and only one warrior skill ever the skill they would choose is Determination (Parry would be a close second...Maybe). That being said I assume almost anyone who finds themselves in combat a lot at some time has spent the 20xp on Determination. I mention this because if you want to make warriors stronger swap Determination with Endurance, although rules makers should know this will mean more chip draws for the PC base. (If you do not think Determination is better than Endurance then you are wrong, very wrong, and I will not waste time on people who think differently because well they're wrong.) Also, if this did get changed I would still spend the extra 20 xp on Endurance because a 2 minute bleed out time is prefered to 1 minute bleed out time when considering that first aid or surgery takes 1 minute (30 seconds for triage, and first aid), and considering that the healers have to travel between downed PCs, and many of the healers usually hide behind the battle lines having people bring downed people to you, unwilling to go into the crossfire to save your butt. All of these consideration take time which is in short supply when you are bleeding out and cannot help yourself.

I also think single weapon master should be changed to a general Weapon master that does not stack with any other Weapon mastery, because well you're a warrior and you should be better with all weapons. And I add that it should not stack because I have been told by some GMs that constant 4 of been tried before and they were not big fans of it. (Also this allows a good substitute for rage that I have heard much dislike of)
.
Consideration should be taken into account for Rogue 3,6,9 or 3,6,10 … Many people are choosing Rogues for their effectiveness against NPCs … Although, I would rather see the attempted solution to be more 10 v 10 encounters, or 15 v 15 encounters then lets weaken rogue, because I enjoy these encounters much more. They make archers more effective.

One last thing I will not be able to post frequently, I just wanted to voice my opinion while I could.

Also, I recognize I am reiterating a recent post but I do not have the time to sit down and write a post in one sitting, and I am not wasting the time I spent writing this out.

Gideon wrote: ~snip~

Hiya, welcome to the rules bickering. always nice to see new faces in our boxing ring.

I liked most of what you said and have a few points:
-3 crush / 3 vorpal I not possible without a hero point IIRC, and the skills do come with fairly considerable drawbacks. if you are getting hit with a swash doing vorpal they take crush, so simply block their hits with your weapon(s) and every time you block call damage, they will die before you. if you are getting hit with a barbarian doing crush he is taking vorpal, so just go all out and hit him back as fast as you can and he will die first.
-I had thought about swaping endurance and determination because I think it fits better, but I was afraid if I suggested it they would actually do it and a lot of builds buy the first few levels of warrior for extra soak and determination.
-actually feigning death. I have no problem with this from any perspective of the game, PC / NPC / GM. this is a case of real cleverness to actually outwit your enemy and im all for that.

and the balance wheel is empath beats warrior, warrior beats rogue, rogue beats empath.
sage, wizard, jack, and healer are not included in circle of death.

the balance in warrior vs rogue has always been that rogues cannot charge, meaning you could give them a 3 count for 50 damage and it would be balanced vs warrior because they cannot charge it. . .but there is still a problem.

feel free to disagree with and ignore, I shall do the same
-Ark?!?!?!

Ark wrote:always nice to see new faces in our boxing ring.

Ding Ding let the match begin

Ark wrote:welcome to the rules bickering

In all seriousness, I hope we are producing some constructive perspective to rules makers, because that is my intent and if not, I will stop now because my intent is not to annoy. (This is a call out to rules people watching this conversation just politely tell me to stop, if I am just producing unwanted background noise, trust me I am a big boy I can take honesty. )

Ark wrote:3 crush / 3 vorpal I not possible without a hero point IIRC, and the skills do come with fairly considerable drawbacks. if you are getting hit with a swash doing vorpal they take crush, so simply block their hits with your weapon(s) and every time you block call damage, they will die before you. if you are getting hit with a barbarian doing crush he is taking vorpal, so just go all out and hit him back as fast as you can and he will die first.

I am fairly sure you can get 3 vorpals/3 crushes with a combination of rage and single weapon mastery. Both the Crush skill and the vorpal skill say you can use rage in conjunction with either of them. Please excuse my inability to interpret acronyms that I am not familiar with, what is IIRC? Also, I agree the draw backs are very nasty, and I do agree with your particular situation and that the 3 vorpal/3 crush builds are not very good 1 v 1 builds. That is why I gave a very particular situation where I believe this build to be stronger than a rogue or empathy could be with any combination of skills (up to level 20 I am not getting into specialties or multiple 4th level disciplines), because to be actually effective with this ability you would need to fight to stand behind, with a long weapon, who can block for you without taking the crush/vorpal damage like you would be taking, working as a team. I also still have to admit I think 8 to 10 rogues are still as good as, if not still slightly better than 8-10 fighter who would have a mixture of the crush/vorpal skills and sword and board for defence at dispatching the majority of NPC encounters. Although, I do believe 5 sword and board fighters (they could be sages, healers, ect) and 5 warrior Barbarians swing a constant 3 crush with 6 ft long clubs, could dispatch 10 (each having its own NPC) decently armed Lizard folk (or some other warrior-ish NPC with moderate intelligence) would be able to defeat them with more ease than a different crew complement with the same 5 sword and board fighters and 5 dual wielding rogues (and yes I believe both crews would be victories because it is PC v NPC, but I am saying the 3 crushing barbarian crew would be better at it).

Ark wrote:I had thought about swaping endurance and determination because I think it fits better, but I was afraid if I suggested it they would actually do it and a lot of builds buy the first few levels of warrior for extra soak and determination.

I did not want to mention it either, but it is you who wanted to start this discussion, and so it was evitable that this would have been brought up in this discussion. Also, I would urge rule makers to leave it as it is because death/resurrection is so harsh in this system, and people do not like losing their PCs prematurely and this is the strongest skill in the public rulebook at keeping a PC away from chip draw.

Ark wrote:-actually feigning death. I have no problem with this from any perspective of the game, PC / NPC / GM. this is a case of real cleverness to actually outwit your enemy and im all for that.

I unfortunately do dislike feigning death; we are not actually bleeding, sustaining concussions, broken ribs, or other injuries, and are enemies cannot asses how damaged an opponent has received when they are on the ground. We cannot answer the following questions. Is my opponent actually bleeding out or is it only a small cut? Is there a pool of blood that is getting bigger? Are they not moving? Are they twitching with pain? How deep did my blade cut, or with how much force did my blow hit? All of these questions could be answered in a real fight, but never in LARP fight. And all of these questions would prevent feigning death. And because of this I really do not believe it takes anymore cleverness then to drop to the ground before you reach negative life, maybe a “clever” PC will drop away from the NPC hitting you. Also, I agree with Kaylan Chargeender it is kind of meta gaming (I will not reiterate the argument), and because you know that the NPC will not strike you when you go down, it really isn’t cleverness that is protecting you but an innate knowledge of NPC behaviour. Also, I feel that feigning death supports NPC behaviour of hitting someone when they are on the ground bleeding out, and I dislike this for safety reasons, downward strokes are more forceful and if you hit someone while they are going down it increase the likelihood of face and head shots, and for mechanical reasons, because really low (low meaning more negative) negative life is really scary, I would not even know how I would go about trying to heal someone to full life when they are at -40. And PC death is scary in this game when there is a raw 20% (and I know it can easily be brought down to 6.7%-10% chance with items, potions, and/or spells) of permanent death. Although this might be a topic we disagree upon. And I do have more I could add to support me dislike for Feigning Death but I am not in college anymore and I refuse to write formal essays.

Ark wrote:and the balance wheel is empath beats warrior, warrior beats rogue, rogue beats empath.

I never thought of it as a balance wheel ... It makes since given the skills present. Although, I think it is a rather fragile balance wheel that could easily have any of the 3 Combat Class beating the other, with an appropriate skill base, and use of a surprise attack ( and this might be for the best, because an absolute balance wheel would be boring). I also, believe that the Warrior class would have the most difficult time changing the balance of this theoretical balance wheel because it would take them a bit more time (when compared with the other classes, because the other classes have large damage abilities) to drop someone of another class.

the GM's do see what we discuss here, and that's why I post even if nobody does. and some people do simply PM the GM's there opinion on topics here instead of posting in said topics because they don't want to debate or argue but do want their positions known. so everything matters.

IIRC = if I recall correctly

actually looking over the rules yes you can swing 3 crush or vorpal if you use single weapon spec, rage, and crush / vorpal. . .however I neglected that because every skill in that combo comes with such dramatic downsides that the combination might do as much harm as good, though I suppose that's why you did point out the specific circumstance in which it would be useful. it sounds powerfull though

I do admit to loving the fact that in your description the healers and sages are protecting the warriors I think we have created a new meta for FH combat

the feign death in combat is really not that bad, NPC's can continue to beat on you (I have witnessed this) simple "asses" you to find out your true condition (rare but I have seen this too) or begin slitting your throat (rare again but it happens).

should be more posted but I have to go

feel free to ignore and disagree
-Ark $$$

The posts are read

the balance wheel trio turns that way because that's the way it was designed as far as I know.

empath shatters warrior
warrior parry's rogue
rogue dodges empath

its just a game of rock paper scissors on a larger scale. most PVP comes from disciplines though. and one has to assume that if PVP is to be engaged in its going to be thought out and prepared ahead of time, if its not then the would be assassin deserves to fail.
make yourself invincible, then wait for your opponent to make a mistake.

feel free to disagree and ignore, this is all opinion, I shall do the same.

-Ark <(-_-)># <---waffles

Ark wrote:its just a game of rock paper scissors on a larger scale. most PVP comes from disciplines though. and one has to assume that if PVP is to be engaged in its going to be thought out and prepared ahead of time, if its not then the would be assassin deserves to fail.
make yourself invincible, then wait for your opponent to make a mistake.

Ark wrote:actually looking over the rules yes you can swing 3 crush or vorpal if you use single weapon spec, rage, and crush / vorpal. . .however I neglected that because every skill in that combo comes with such dramatic downsides that the combination might do as much harm as good, though I suppose that's why you did point out the specific circumstance in which it would be useful. it sounds powerfull though

Precisely, and yes I do feel it would be really powerful in the given circumstances

Ark wrote:I do admit to loving the fact that in your description the healers and sages are protecting the warriors I think we have created a new meta for FH combat

Well even the “Non-Combat” Classes can still be good at melee combat. Also, I believe this is one, of the many, strong pulling points to this LARP.

Ark wrote:the feign death in combat is really not that bad, NPC's can continue to beat on you (I have witnessed this) simple "asses" you to find out your true condition (rare but I have seen this too) or begin slitting your throat (rare again but it happens).

Alright, it is not terrible, but I still dislike it greatly. I have already described why I dislike NPCs hitting PC while they should be on the ground bleeding (More Negative = scary, PC death/resurrection is scary and undesirable from the players perspective, and the safety of downward swings). Also, to add to what I have said, it would make sense for a monster or a bandit to leave someone to bleed out on the ground because most NPC of varying level of intelligence would think or innately know that the bleeding out individual would be dead soon anyways, so there is little point to and killing blow them. Also, I still believe that it is not a particularly clever action, instead I believe it is just taking advantage of the fact that we are in a LARP and not in a real life situation. That is why I would be ok if feigning death was an actual skill that could be purchased, that would be ok (a combat version, that asses could penetrate, not a potion).

Ark wrote:its just a game of rock paper scissors on a larger scale. most PVP comes from disciplines though. and one has to assume that if PVP is to be engaged in its going to be thought out and prepared ahead of time, if its not then the would be assassin deserves to fail.
make yourself invincible, then wait for your opponent to make a mistake.

That is why I do not believe it was an absolute Rock, Paper, Scissors. Also, this is why I like it because having skills that allow for one path to defeat another is good, but these skills are not so overpowering that they create an absolute Warrior always beats Rogue, Rogue always beats Empath, and Empath always beats Warrior, which is also very good.

I understand your position on actually feigning death, especially coming from a healer. and perhaps it is slightly meta knowledge, but if you do fall down there is no assurance they are not going to try and carry you away, begin slitting your throat, eat you, continue beating on you, etc. its a gamble.
however from different perspectives:

PC perspective:
-if I as a PC am feigning death that probably assumes a few things. I am low on health, I can no longer fight effectively, I cannot run away. in this situation the hope is that the monsters leave you alone (and they hopefully will) and the end result is one that you want (PC's to save you and get you to a healer)

NPC perspective:
-If I as an NPC see a person down and know they are feigning death (I have on a few occasions) I have left them alone unless im particularly trying to kill them or kidnap them, etc. this is because I have included them in the encounter and ensuing fight, beat them down, and removed them from the encounter for a while. the only thing I could do further if the encounter required it was to try and kidnap them or killing blow them if required.

the PVP balance wheel assumes face to face 1v1 combat, and that is not how PVP works. that's fine for rogue and empath, they excel and snowball when given time to prepare. the same cannot be said for the warrior, as time goes by the warrior remains the same as the others get stronger. it is also the hardest path of the three to gank with because of its lack of burst and CC skills, of which empath and rogue have both.