FinalHavenLarp.com

in the previous thread it was noted that Samuria is still alive and kicking in that game. obviously this means its hidden, wich brings meany explitives to mind that i wont post here.

everyone should be under the same rules
everyone should have access to all the rules

i can think of a few reasons for this, none very good.

-we want people to quest and work for it:
its a larp, people come to the game to quest and play, i would asume?

-we want people to role play for it:
its a larp, role playing is in the title, once it again its what people come to do, i would asume?

i find it (insert explitives here) that people all pay the samy amount of money to play this game, but some people get special things. this is at best favoritism, and at worst cheating.

put everything in the rulebook so that everyone may use it. if i see anyone using rules that are not in the book i will simply ignore absolutly everything they do, as they are cheating. and yes im mad, hidden is broken and lame and other explitives.

I think its cool that there are hidden unlockable things in the game. means there is more to the world than just what is contained in the book.

I feel as though hidden disciplines are a lot like hidden items. They are out there for any player to utilize as long as they put for a little bit of effort. If you want to play a Samurai go in game and have someone teach your character like the last guy who got Samurai.

Josh you seem to be on some kind of crusade to fix every aspect of the game. Some of your fixes are actually complete reworks of paths and disciplines.

I'm gonna make a suggestion. You seem to be at a point in your larping career where you have a good idea what you want out of a game. I feel that once a person has reached that point then it's time to go ahead and start building your own system.

Take some time and really write it out and work on it. Every time you feel like changing something here just use that as your outlet. Invest enough time in it and you'll have something that will be perfect for the kind of game you want to run.

Also come out to a game some time. It's been like forever since I've even seen you on the field.

Kiel Reid wrote:I feel as though hidden disciplines are a lot like hidden items. They are out there for any player to utilize as long as they put for a little bit of effort. If you want to play a Samurai go in game and have someone teach your character like the last guy who got Samurai.

not really a great example for the most part hidden items are broken, cause imballance, and turn the game into the person with the most items wins

Kiel Reid wrote:Josh you seem to be on some kind of crusade to fix every aspect of the game. Some of your fixes are actually complete reworks of paths and disciplines.

the only real thing i tried to fix was rogue 3, 6, 9. the rest are ideas to inspire other ideas by those that actually make the game.

Kiel Reid wrote:I'm gonna make a suggestion. You seem to be at a point in your larping career where you have a good idea what you want out of a game. I feel that once a person has reached that point then it's time to go ahead and start building your own system.

I did run a game for about 3-4 years using the FH rules because i like the system. it ended well and was meant as a taste of FH to get more people to come here, we in fact did change some of the system. the system for healing was thought up by me and my brother on the way in the car, we told jared about it who then help'd us refine it while we were walking around a store if i recall, and then it was brought to FH.

Kiel Reid wrote:Take some time and really write it out and work on it. Every time you feel like changing something here just use that as your outlet. Invest enough time in it and you'll have something that will be perfect for the kind of game you want to run.

i have no interest in designing or running my own system, im just good about breaking things and tearing stuff apart.

Kiel Reid wrote:Also come out to a game some time. It's been like forever since I've even seen you on the field.

to be honest rules kept me away for the most part. but christy, matt, adam, and I have been busy or had other things to ocupy ourselves with. im really the only one that checks the boards. we enjoy FH but something or another upsets us and we skip and event, and another, and another, etc. maybe well get out soon.

In any case everything should be in the rulebook, there is no good reason not too, it just seems cheasy and cheap.

Ark’s got a valid point, but I think the perspective’s a bit off.

I’ve shown up at nearly every event for 11 years – all but two of those as Dallid. My characters have always been extremely active – out on plots all the time and only missing those that occur simultaneously. So why haven’t I ever seen an NPC offer up a hidden discipline when other PCs are able to get one within a few events of starting?

Favoritism? I don’t think so. I strongly believe NPC Camp goes to great lengths to avoid this.

A case of the squeaky wheels getting greased? Kinda, but that’s a very negative and destructive way of looking at it.

A good GM will put much effort into accommodating and meeting the individual needs and goals of the playerbase – they will work hard to ensure as best as they are able that everyone has a good time. So when a player makes it known that their character is looking to accomplish something specific, like achieving a particular title, ability, item, etc.; NPC camp should make an effort to make such a goal possible, while also ensuring that doing so doesn’t detract from the rest of the game (skill/item isn’t broken). It’s far from easy, and doesn’t always work out, but I doubt the FH Staff ever shies from the challenge.

Now I would *pray* that the player does everything in-game, but I know this is often not the case. No doubt NPC Camp has received many PMs of the form “I want my character to be able to do THIS. Can you help me?” So the GMs discuss the request at the next meeting, brainstorm, come up with a new discipline that resembles the player’s requested skill-set without being nearly as game-breaking as originally requested, then respond to the player with “The ability is out there, you just need to find someone who can teach it.” Probably a similar system follows for requested items.

To ignore such requests would be lazy and irresponsible of the GMs. The game would suffer greatly (and have a much lower attendance) if the GMs ignored individual desires/goals.

Now I’ll go years without sending a PM to the GMs. I just show up at events, play, go home and forget about Dallid until the next event. So am I getting screwed because I’m not ‘squeaky’? No. I get out of the game what I put into it. I don’t scheme inbetween events, nor actively pursue character improvements, so I don’t reap any such reward. What I do work toward is achieving a reputation with both the PCs and NPCs, and in that I feel I’ve been rewarded in spades. That’s what I put into the game, and the NPCs have made sure that I get that out of it.

If you’re not getting from the game what you think is owed, ask yourself how much effort you’ve really made toward that goal. How much time have you actually spent on it? Odds are pretty high you haven’t done what is necessary to deserve it.

Dallid’s never been offered a hidden discipline by an NPC. Also, Dallid’s never made an effort to find one. Makes sense to me. So since I’m not really interested in hidden disciplines, should they be removed from the game? Of course not, as other players *are* interested. The ability to find ‘Easter Eggs’ is an important aspect in a LARP for most folks, so a good LARP will accommodate that desire.

I am always torn on hidden things like races and disaplines.

Magic items, and the like will always be "hidden" because each item is a unique snow flake with it's own history.

Races: Some places there will be races where there is a race that you might want to place. Since Racial boons have been severed this is purely a roleplaying mechanic anyway.

Disciplines:
These are out there. None of the ones I have every been a part of have required any less than a complex set of missions/ rp. Most hidden disciplines are now in the book.

as far as not taking damage from an ability, how can you tell the 5 vorpal banish from a magic item? You can't. If you see someone do something and you don;t know how they did, you take it, and then you ask a GM who will tell you "It's fine."

And if Parry "isn;t that good." Why would it's inclusion be bad? You can;t have it be both ways.

cole45 wrote:And if Parry "isn;t that good." Why would it's inclusion be bad? You can;t have it be both ways.

you put that in quotations yet i have never said that, parry is a great skill, and the reason why warrior is ballanced so badly, its the crutch. I have said that Samuria was "the best" discipline in the game because you could get parry without taking the rest of the rubbish that is warrior.

Hidden Races: meh, its just RP now, i let people be whatever race they came up with in SH because it has no mechanical benifit anymore, its all just RP and thats fine.

Hidden Items: I relise the game is going to have these and there is nothing i can do to get rid of them, save steal and shatter anything i come accross

Hidden Disciplines: this is not a matter of i dont have one so im upset, I know very well i could simply PM a GM and work something out. thats not the point. Everything should be in the Rulebook, Everyone from the 5 year vet to the new player should be able to see whats available to them and build a character that they want.

Dallid is one of the best characters i know in this game, great RP, loves questing, great to talk to about things, and has done more in the world then probobly anyone else i know. Yet he does not get nore care about the Discipline. So the idea of "making people work or RP" for it is just silly.

the idea of a Larp, that you come to (some from great distances) pay for ( in the cost of the game, the cost of gas, the cost of food, the cost of garb) is to RP, quest, fight, and have fun. putting hidden disciplines out there thats requirements are pretty much what you come to do is silly.

Put it in the book or get rid of it

Ark wrote: the idea of a Larp, that you come to (some from great distances) pay for ( in the cost of the game, the cost of gas, the cost of food, the cost of garb) is to RP, quest, fight, and have fun. putting hidden disciplines out there thats requirements are pretty much what you come to do is silly.

Put it in the book or get rid of it

And that is your opinion, you believe that is why everyone comes, and no one should have hidden disciplines. I think differently. The reasons people come to play are their own. I also think that anything the GMs do is between them and the players. If hidden disciplines were such a problem don't you think the GMs would curtail them? Ive NEVER heard of an Issue with them, and have been around with a couple going in. We also dont just throw them in willy nilly, and there is a lot of thought that goes into these. So if you don't like the idea of them so be it, but dont assume you speak for everyone, because that is just silly.

Smitty19 wrote:And that is your opinion, you believe that is why everyone comes, and no one should have hidden disciplines. I think differently. The reasons people come to play are their own. I also think that anything the GMs do is between them and the players. If hidden disciplines were such a problem don't you think the GMs would curtail them? Ive NEVER heard of an Issue with them, and have been around with a couple going in. We also dont just throw them in willy nilly, and there is a lot of thought that goes into these. So if you don't like the idea of them so be it, but dont assume you speak for everyone, because that is just silly.

And that is your opinion goes both ways

everything is opinion, there is no perfect larp system, there is no perfect game, and nonebody will always agree on everything. thats why rules change. here is my personal opinion, Hidden Disciplines are so people can feel better then others and one up someone else, i have something you dont and you dont know about it "sticks out tongue" is the basic idea, people like to feel better then others, and like to have something other people dont have, or dont know about.

well everbody is equal in this great game we play, and should have equal choice in disciplines, and at the end of the day, no GM is ever going to tell a player "no you cant have that discipline"

put it in the book, or get rid of it.

Everything should be in the Rulebook,

Your right because there has never been an easter egg in a video game...or movie...or DVD... EVERYTHING is right out in the open. Even the NSA and CIA and FBI everyone what skills they teach thier agents so that children can decide if they want that career....

what world do you live in when righting such things?!?! There are hidden things to find in EVERY game....and in life. Hidden disciplined are actualy more realistic than having them all in the book.

Everyone from the 5 year vet to the new player should be able to see whats available to them and build a character that they want.

They can, with the stuff in the rule book and supplement.

Dallid is one of the best characters i know in this game, great RP, loves questing, great to talk to about things, and has done more in the world then probobly anyone else i know. Yet he does not get nore care about the Discipline. So the idea of "making people work or RP" for it is just silly.

ya know...I must fully agree...we should alter the rules to include only the things Dallid...a face person...desires..since he is the metric to compare all things to....

the idea of a Larp, that you come to (some from great distances) pay for ( in the cost of the game, the cost of gas, the cost of food, the cost of garb) is to RP, quest, fight, and have fun. putting hidden disciplines out there thats requirements are pretty much what you come to do is silly.

soooo...you admit..that people come out to RP...and you want to remove one of the RP hooks the GMs put in the game...for the people that come...to RP.......makes PERFECT sense.

here is my personal opinion, Hidden Disciplines are so people can feel better then others and one up someone else, i have something you dont and you dont know about it "sticks out tongue" is the basic idea, people like to feel better then others, and like to have something other people dont have, or dont know about.

and should have equal choice in disciplines

we do...we can chose to RP to get the hidden disciplines or we can chose to NOT ...see...easy peazy equal choice.

There is so much I want to say, but I won't

Here is what I will say...part of the game is about the adventure. To have an adventure is to venture into the unknown and thus there must be an unknown.

last post

I wish i had known more about this game before i had spent so much time promoting it.

Kiel Reid wrote:Also come out to a game some time. It's been like forever since I've even seen you on the field.

not likely.

not likely.

...too bad, I would love a chance to sit down and discuss RP and game philosophy at game break with you rather than banter back and forth here. Ive never felt written words the best way to have these conversation. To easy to misunderstand or get hurt feelings over whats intended humoprous sarcasm or simple directness.
I think if you attended more you would make a great GM once you got past your focus on the numbers.

Hidden Disciplines are so people can feel better then others and one up someone else, i have something you dont and you dont know about it "sticks out tongue" is the basic idea, people like to feel better then others, and like to have something other people dont have, or dont know about.

That’s a dark way of putting it, but – yes, that’s exactly what a rather large percentage of the playerbase wants out of the game, and the GMs need to accommodate that desire if they want the players to have a good time. Indeed *all* players want to feel special, though in different ways. Many definitely do want to possess secrets and rare talents. A secret *and* rare talent is gold to the majority.

The trick is keeping such hidden skills/items from being game-breaking, and there’s been a few notable failures in the past. The GMs have therefore reduced *much* of the hidden things in the game be removing potion and spell research – so the game has moved leaps and bounds in the direction you prefer. Now all the potions and spells are in the rule book, when before all but a tiny fraction were indeed hidden.

Personally I miss that aspect of the game. It fed the imagination and gave the impression that anything was possible (Amagus wouldn’t have been possible without it). However it proved too difficult to police for game-breaking potential, and so had to go. But there’s only a few hidden disciplines, the creation of which is controlled solely by the GMs, so they’re more easily monitored. But they allow PCs to believe that if there’s something they really want to do, perhaps there’s a way to learn how to do it. That kind of limitless potential adds significantly to a LARPs sense of adventure, exploration, and discovery.

Many people greatly appreciate a LARP where, once you’ve finished reading the rulebook, you can ask ‘What more may be out there?’

I know rule discussions frustrate you..sad this is your last post..you actually were bringing people to the board and helped people solidify what they want and don't want in the system, Iron sharpens Iron kinda thing.

MISS YOU!!!!