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I REALLY liked the overall way the old arcane and alchemist worked.

I dont agree that the changes made are what needed to be done in order to control them, but I also know what DID need to be done wasnt and the GMs feel they got out of hand.

In an effort to get some of the flexability back, would the staff consider a change that allowed them to pick the spells/potions they had access to at check in and thats what they had for the event? That way they arent stuck with potions they can fully utalize in an event and can McGuiver thier potions/spells a bit if they know suspect the town will be facing a foe that thier current or standars selections will be less effective against.

Just brainstorming a middle of the road idea to make plot happy with the control level ANd the players that are/were arcanes and alchemists happy to get back some of the lost flexability. WOuld also make spell/recepie books an ingame commodity again, since you cant chose a spell/brew you dont have a signed recipie for.

Please see this post-

http://www.finalhavenlarp.com/phpBB2/vi ... php?t=5588

Also, if you name your threads in relation to what the thread discussion is about, the can easily be found and referenced again later. Really, it helps people like me. *shrug*

I was aware of the former discussion, am posting from work and didnt have time to find it AND didnt really want to revisit that since I was hoping a fresh topic might get fresh perspective from the voting staff and get some movement on the topic like re submitting the point system seems to have done, guess I just need to wait another two years.

As for naming the threads, it might help finding em, but would bore the hell out of me...

We may change it, may not. I pretty much dont want to change anything.

Question are the spells and potions balanced with other skills?

The simple fact the potions are one shot and spells take minutes to cast, generally makes them nearly a sure thing for balance. I do know there can occasionally be synergistic effects, but after looking over the list in the core rules I see little to be concerned about. Once the potions are made that entire discipline/path if alchemicly slanted...is useless for the event.
Even if its a spells only arcane wizard, they are still limited by having the RIGHT spells to help at a time when they are needed, as opposed to a warrior/sage, empath, craftsman, undead hunter, scout.....which are almost always in demand.

I just think the changes to arcane and alchemist essentially say " we dont have the manpower to properly police these so we are going to turn your alchemist/arcane , which was all about flexability to start with, into a special powers vending machine that you can never change the powers of."
It is akin to making a craftsman pick one armor location and type of armor, one weapon, one shield type and size and one exotic item and say thats all they will ever know how to make. Ruins the concept of the profession.

Sorry, didn't really mean to pee in your cheerios.

I had considered this though. You can spend an event to unlearn your highest rank arcane, and then next event spend the points to take it again but with a different spell/potion. Yeah, you're out that top rank for one event, but there is a work around for swapping them out.

2 things

1) Nearly every player has complained to us about how their skill set was not useful. The only exception are healers

2) there is a misconception of how arcane and alchemy is suppose to work due to a logistic issue which should be fixed soon. In the old old system if a new spell or potion came out then eventually everyone knew that spell or potion. To make things more mysterious and stuff we as gm's are suppose to be coming out with magic items that are only usable by an arcane or alchemist. These items will function in a similar way as the old system. They are suppose to be relics with a history and stuff. For example maybe a bowl which allows you to make super cool potion in X time, but needs a healing potion to power it. It would be 1 of a kind so it elevates the player who has it. I think it adds character to the game. Problem is we have not been putting out such items, and 2 people have not been researching plot lines where such items might be found.

GM_Chris wrote:To make things more mysterious and stuff we as gm's are suppose to be coming out with magic items that are only usable by an arcane or alchemist.

Uh, why? This makes them "unbalanced" again...UNLESS you wanted to take out one spell per level and give main path arcanes an ability to buy that lets them use each rank worth of items. Lets say 1-2-3. No prerequisite to buy each rank as you would for channel (as an example), but the points "combine" so that an arcane with all three ranks could use, say a level 6 Arcane Relic (this is similar to how it works in mine). Or they could use a four and a two. If they only had basic, they could only use 1 point relics. I hope I explained that properly. I REALLY need to write up my ruleset better and throw it out there for giggles.

OR I'd rather say you are making relics/artifacts of an equal spread restricted to certain paths as a whole, not just focused on ONE path. (EG: Sage artifacts, Warrior artifacts, Mage Artifacts, so on and so forth).

"Mages" already have a grab-bag of abilities and the ability to use those focus items (Which you could drop the price on if you wanted them to be more useful or for mages to have more versatility).

Heidi, if you are saying the idea of the magic items makes them unbalanced then I take it you see their skills balanced the way they are and would vote for no change. Is this correct?

Sorry, didn't really mean to pee in your cheerios.

I didnt think you were...

I had considered this though. You can spend an event to unlearn your highest rank arcane, and then next event spend the points to take it again but with a different spell/potion. Yeah, you're out that top rank for one event, but there is a work around for swapping them out.

As you pointed out , the issue is speed and only one rank. The arcanists and alchemists were presented to be scholarlywizards/mages/shamans/witch doctors that had secret recepies or old scrolls and books that allowed them to harness magic in a brew, or through a ceramony. They were not even as combat effective as an empath, but had powers and flexability that made them the ultimate Bat Balt for those they fought along side. Now they are vending machines.
The changes have just made them less fun to play, since they have become the opposite of what they were.


2 more things

1) Nearly every player has complained to us about how their skill set was not useful. The only exception are healers

I am not complaining let alone complaining about MY PC since I have never PCed a full arcane or alchemist. Nate did have a level or two of arcane...but he is real real real dead.
I am pointing out that I can see without even adding into the discussion, the other discussions I have had with players that DO/DID play them, they although i kinda get your goal in the changes; you removed the fun WITH the control dificulty.
Just pointing that out since all the GMs talk about making the game fun for everyone.
Aslo, if a PC is geared to be an alchemist; his or her skills as an alchemist ARE useless once his potions are made, and even the potions he or she makes can be of little or no help if he doesnt know just the right ones the players may bneed for a particular bad guy. That flexability is what made them cool to play.
An arcanist/wizard type is less so since they do get to re use the spells over the event, but they to have been hamstrung because they can only know the ones they are created to know.
My point is simply that you do NOT have to hog tie them like that, to get the control your seeking as a GM staff.

2) there is a misconception of how arcane and alchemy is suppose to work due to a logistic issue which should be fixed soon.

Therer is no misconception about how they are supposed to work, the archtypes are well known among gamers. There may be a misunderstanding about how the GMs have planned to hanedle them with respect to game mechanics since this change, ovbiously because it was not included in the skill description about these items (somewhat understandably).
It doesnt breed confidence that a logistical issue has made them broken, based on what was intended, since your stating they were changed because of a logistical issue that made them different than was originally intended.

In the old old system if a new spell or potion came out then eventually everyone knew that spell or potion.

sooo? If the Pcs want to let such valuable secrets proliferate, let em. Its thier loss. Best way to have prevented that was to have NPCs charge crazy prices for an unknown spell to be cast or potion brewed and "your outta your friggan tree" prices to get a copy. They would eventually see thier error and change or not.

To make things more mysterious and stuff we as gm's are suppose to be coming out with magic items that are only usable by an arcane or alchemist.

Then what your doing is essentialy giving PCs that play those skill sets a race car with a 2 stroke engine and making them go find a bigger engine if they want to use the skills as the GMs intended. That doesnt fit with the "like other skills" excuses I have been hearing in discussions of late.
And how does "my transform to Mattasaurus potion needs an aincient egg beater to brew correctly" make for more mystery? If you want mystery, go back to having them fins components. I think the fact the staff has gotten soft on such things has made some RP aspects of the game bland. Maybe the players are letting other players skate on such RP requirements too, like just standing around and calling it defensive matrix.

Problem is we have not been putting out such items, and 2 people have not been researching plot lines where such items might be found.

a) Shame shame if you havent, but easily fixable I guess.

b) any skill set that has to be researched to reach its full potential AFTER your khnow all the skills in it...is broken, since it "isnt like the other skills in FH"

All in all its just a suggestion to step back towors the way it used to be, to make the arcanists and alchemists happier in a way that will still give you the control over the chaos the GMs fealt the original system was.

Also making them "relics" that have to be found or researched or both is unfair since warriors can just go get gear from a crafter, as can rogues, empaths, healers, and sages. They dont NEED items to make thier powers "mysterious".

Nor should wiz/arcanist/alchemists have to spend levels or points or anything like that to use items that bring out the "true power" of the skills they buy

Then what your doing is essentialy giving PCs that play those skill sets a race car with a 2 stroke engine and making them go find a bigger engine if they want to use the skills as the GMs intended. That doesnt fit with the "like other skills" excuses I have been hearing in discussions of late.
And how does "my transform to Mattasaurus potion needs an aincient egg beater to brew correctly" make for more mystery? If you want mystery, go back to having them fins components. I think the fact the staff has gotten soft on such things has made some RP aspects of the game bland. Maybe the players are letting other players skate on such RP requirements too, like just standing around and calling it defensive matrix.

Um having a skill that can do 0, unless components are found is better? The idea is to have a hybred where nearly all the potential is there, but still have the option for further flexibility.

any skill set that has to be researched to reach its full potential AFTER your khnow all the skills in it...is broken, since it "isnt like the other skills in FH"

Well if you don't like the idea since it would not behave like "any other kill" in the game. Then I must at this time completely reject your proposal since it would change alchemy and arcane to behave in a way completely different than the rest of the skills in the system.

I say discussion over.
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Um having a skill that can do 0, unless components are found is better?

Yup, since the herb finding option can be done DURING an event as opposed to researching some relic that mat take several IN BETWEEN even session to just FIND let alone get to and acquire.
With the herbs an alchemist can stumble across or seek them out at the may event and have them on hand (for several months as I think they should need to be FAIRLY recently aqquired to keep a handle on potentials) even if they dont need the potion THAT herb is used for.
Same goes for arcane if they need magical trappings like sacred ash tree bark, or the third nipple of a blue frog or the contricant tears of my ex...wait scratch that they dont exist.

The idea is to have a hybred where nearly all the potential is there, but still have the option for further flexibility

But thats just it Chris, compared to the flexability the original system had, the new one falls MILES short. Making other affects require relics that need to be quested for just FURTHER limits the skills.
You concept makes for cooler PLOTS than skill mechanics.

Well if you don't like the idea since it would not behave like "any other kill" in the game. Then I must at this time completely reject your proposal since it would change alchemy and arcane to behave in a way completely different than the rest of the skills in the system.

I do like skills that function differently, thats why I am proposing the change. I was simply pointing out that with the mantra thats been used to support the current system, the skills fit even less if they need these relics to reach full potential.

Well there is really doubt in my mind if they are not already on par with the other skills. Plus I dont want to change or add any new rules.

Yup, since the herb finding option can be done DURING an event as opposed to researching some relic that mat take several IN BETWEEN even session to just FIND let alone get to and acquire.

I am fairly certain what I have in my head is a pretty good idea, and I wont change my mind until I see it played out.

Now if the other GM's decide to change alchemy and arcane to the proposed system, which is currently being play tested in super secret anyways. Then I will out the kabosh on the cool plot, atmospheric, emotion generating, flexible, relic idea that frankly you are not understanding because I am not communicating it well...

Chris, I like your idea of adding interesting artifacts to the alchemy / arcane system. It's somewhat reminds me of the old Materia system in Final Fantasy. With the right bauble you can either gain access to something cool or upgrade what you've already got. It's unique, controllable and can be easily monitored by the GM staff.

I also don't think that alchemy and arcane need to regain their previous flexibility. Unless we're willing to generate a set of skills for every path and discipline that can be customized for each character every event, I don't think letting one path / discipline enjoy that advantage is justified.

One potential solution might be to do away with the Wizard/Alchemist/Arcane system completely. Simply have spells and recipes that are tagged, non-copyable items that anyone (provided they have the required materials) can use. Balance it by limiting the number of spells and recipes in-game as well as the components needed to cast/brew. Then your flexibility is dependent on your in-game ability to get what you need and not a mechanic. New and unique spells/recipes could be introduced without fear of everyone and their mother having them, and no character would be dependent on magic/alchemy to feel useful.

I also don't think that alchemy and arcane need to regain their previous flexibility. Unless we're willing to generate a set of skills for every path and discipline that can be customized for each character every event, I don't think letting one path / discipline enjoy that advantage is justified.

See this baffels me, the other disciplines have no NEED for that flexability since they arent intended to be a swiss army knife. The arcane and alchemist are. Thier affect on combat or problems in town is generally small but they are able to tailor to the current need, while the other skill sets have many times the impact even if they are occasionally not effective (like a knight facing a creature only affected by magic)

Not all paths and disciplines need to be "equal" in form and functionality. They all have thier role and purpose, with the arcane and alchemist it was to be a fluid, situational, support role. They are no longer that to the detriment to the skill sets.