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Francesco DeLemuerte wrote:I like where the thought pattern is going though. I'm not a fan of the 5 Root call but I'm digging the idea of messing around with status calls.

^ That ^

I too dig the idea of a root/hamstring/press or some other movement impairing call for a warrior, but without the damage call on it (or, if you want it to be parry-able and not surge, a "1.") I think appending these calls with something higher than "1" is a little too beefy. BUT if the damage is being dropped to 1, I'd be ok with making it a non LP cost skill with either a charge time or longer cooldown.

I still think removing the +1 WS from master warrior is unnecessary though...again...people play warriors who DON'T take one of the + 1 WS disciplines and would probably like the option to increase their damage.

GM_Chris wrote:You played in the basement of Barnes Hall at CMU? I thought that was a bit before your time. Thought sleepy hollow was before your time too?

But yes you have been here for awhile.

lol, nope not me, but my close friends and siblings started back when carps got going, not sure when exactly, over 10 years ago, used to be only a half hour from our house, wich seemed like a ways at the time , we tell em to "dont get dead" every time they went out. i grew up playing with foam swords
infact i happen to be caretaker of the original FH write up of the magic system, wich happens to have notes written on the side by either chris or wayne
thats why i find it so crazy to see were the game has gone in that time.


back to the skills

i wanted to add some good damage to it instead of making it just another status call, it also makes it seem more like a combat skill, like the 5 crush, and 5 vorpal skills.
and 5 is not that much damage, basic rouge is 40 points to get 4, so i dont think a master warrior being able to do some good charge up damage would be too bad.
also if a warrior has the ability to charge for some damage we wont be loking to get it passivly, in the form of +1 bonus to base damage

I PERSONALLY feel that a "5" WITH an ongoing status effect is a lot. I'm looking for precedent for having an ongoing status effect WITH a hearty chunk of damage and I'm just not finding any at the moment.

Even hamstring is only 1 vorpal root, and it definitely shouldn't be better than that. In fact, since the skill already exists as a rogue ability, I'm hesitant to see warriors get something similar (Or perhaps even better, depending on how you look at it). I think most status effects (for the most part) are the purview of the other (more subtle) paths, while the warrior makes up for it by having by and far the best soak.

Using Vorpal and Crush as your suggestions, my thing is, you use those and they are done. Getting to do 5 damage AND rooting someone for the cost of 1 LP seems overpowered to me.

I'd be ok with it if we are looking at, say, upping the LP cost to a 2 or 3 to activate it (similar to how the sage "dominate" 1st requires a LP to mesmerize and then another LP to use it).

I'm maybe even ok with a "Precision Strike" ability that lets warriors do a vorpal call...the advanced ability is 1 crush for 1 LP with a headed weapon, how about a master ability that is 1 Vorpal for 1 LP with a bladed weapon? Or, since some of the other classes have pre-requisite skills, how about a charge-up for the Advanced ability that lets you swing 1 crush and make it more damage for the LP? I think Beastman has a 5 crush? How about a press resist?

What I think would be coolest would be an LP driven "Lash Fear" or "Lash Press" ability...something that really fits the warrior archetype.

I'm also okay with Chris' suggestion of a damage skill for warriors that can be performed in no armor, but I personally feel that melee driven low-armor high damage skills should belong to the rogue. If it isn't obvious, I'm in the boat with many of the people who feel that warriors are good enough as is.

Just my thoughts.

Totally away from the concept of adding a damage call how about giving warrior something else:


Advanced Skill: Armor Efficiency: A warrior is trained early in his career to work in armor and use it to the best of it's ability. This also extends to making sure it covers vital areas. With this skill a warrior only requires 3 minutes of work from a Craftsman to get his armor repaired and back into action.

first the reapir armor thing, i suggested just giving them repair armor, shot down as it was said that it wasnt a big deal.

second, if 5 is a large amount of damage i request we re balance rouge, again, again
5 is not big damage, especially over 15 seconds when rouge get 12+ in that time. adding root or slick to it as well is not bad, as it does NOTHING, other than keep a monster from running us all over, poison does something, so does fear, so does disease, etc. root and slick dont really do anything.
i would like to point out that in 15 seconds and 1 life point, a rouge gets
"12","1 vorpal root" so for the call i have suggested, this is what rouges get at an equal cost

"warriors have the soak"
yes we are all well aware, and healers heal life, poison, and disease. rouges do locks, crit strike, and knockout. sages solve plots, augment skills, and copy minor ones. empaths help rez people, throw booms, sleep, shatter, and deal with magic.

I'm beginning to Agree with Ark, But only if their skill requires a cooldown and 1LP. I think i'm fine with the idea of maybe a 5 press like they were being tackled or spartan kicked, w/e.

Plus Rogue is pretty bamf now, I play one and I'm satisfyed with no complaints at all. "12" is 15 is a master skill mind you, but if warrior had this press skill as an advanced i'd like it to be a LP and prolly 10-15sec cooldown.

I do have a quick idea for us all to consider for a moment, we keep throwing out all these ideas but are we getting anywhere? Really it's up to the G.M.'s to Y/N it, isn't it? So whats the point until we get any feedback from them on what we're thinking?

Remember the point of the warrior is to take damage, not to deal damage.

Infact the warrior IMO should do only slightly more damage than a sage.

GM_Chris Posted:

Remember the point of the warrior is to take damage, not to deal damage.

Infact the warrior IMO should do only slightly more damage than a sage.

Uhm...huh?

Is that just the role you and the other designers wanted them to play, or is that how you see warriors in a fantasy combat situation?

In most every fantasy combat simulation ive encountered, the warrior is one of the build best at taking it, THE best at dishing it out on a steady over time basis, and horrid at big booms. "mages" or in the case of FH/WH channelers ar ethe heavy artillery, huge but very intermittent damage. Rogues/thieves/assassins are sneak attack'flank combatants that are geared twords busts of melle damage larger but much less frequent than a warrior.

If you relegate them to being just a meat shield, why not strip them of all weapon damage above 1 and just double thier CBR and Life totals and let em stand there and get boffer weapon mauled?

Warrior has the best defensive abilities, but they also have some of the best offensive abilities as it stands right now. No, they do not have the explosive damage of Empath or Rouge. But they aren't exactly wimps with the ability to crank out 2's with a shield or 3's with a single weapon at their discretion.

A smart warrior evaluates the fight and switches between using their defensive abilities (Parry and Defensive Matrix) when their allies such as the Rouge or Empath need time to get their explosive abilities off. If needed he can drop those abilities and become a killing machine through the use of Rage. 2's are nothing to scoff at, it's double the damage that any other path can swing. Goodness forgive that Warrior pick up two weapons and really start kicking some bottom.

The best thing about it is the Warrior can transition pretty quickly between these styles. Instantly to offensive and it takes 5 seconds to transition back into defensive because of the cooldown of Rage.

^This

Also,

Goodness forgive that Warrior pick up two weapons and really start kicking some bottom.

Thanks for making this post extra safe for work and grandmothers!

GM_Chris wrote:Remember the point of the warrior is to take damage, not to deal damage.

Infact the warrior IMO should do only slightly more damage than a sage.

Francesco DeLemuerte wrote:Warrior has the best defensive abilities, but they also have some of the best offensive abilities as it stands right now.

This, again. In this setting, each of the paths has their primary role. If warriors are the best (or second best..and I still think they come close to best) offensively AND defensively, what is the point of playing anything else except for roleplaying reasons? If warriors can do as good of damage as a rogue (while wearing heavy armour, at that), why play a rogue?

Sage - Hints/gather information
Healer - Healing life/status
Warrior - Front Man
Rouge - Light Armoured Burst Damage
Empath - Ranged Burst Damage
Wizard - ??? (Haven't seen it in action long enough)

Now, there is a little bit of crossover if you just look at straight up paths...for example, warriors can increase their damage by taking weapon specialization or trading off their defense by going into rage mode. Healers can learn how to use shields. Empaths have transference for a little emergency heal backup. Sages dabble in a little bit of this and that, outside of info gathering. Rogues...I'm not really sure that rogues HAVE anything that really steps into another path's role at all, I don't know where my book is at the moment.

But NONE of the other paths have access to the soak a warrior does. I'm fairly sure that while a few warrior abilities have weapon/shield restrictions, NONE of them have armor restrictions. No path gets the kind of access to CR that a warrior does (A sage can take a +2 CR and I THINK rogues get to pick up a couple? Or maybe not.) But NO PATH OTHER THAN WARRIOR gains bonus LPs. Period. I think that in itself shows what the main purpose of the warrior is.

Now, if you want to give warriors a "damage" stance OTHER than rage (Because that's it's purpose...trading off safety for damage), I'd be okay with that...at the cost of removing accessibility to a lot of their LP, CR and ability to wear heavy armour. In other words, make them more like a rogue. Or you could take Jack of All Trades and dabble in both at the cost of not having access to the master/specialized abilities.

Wyrmwrath wrote: If you relegate them to being just a meat shield, why not strip them of all weapon damage above 1 and just double thier CBR and Life totals and let em stand there and get boffer weapon mauled?

You mention warriors in other games, good or bad, my opinion is that a lot of other games rules allow for more open skill picking, higher powered games, and less categorizing (Which FH/WH ruleset does to simplify play), so I think it's more likely to see these kinds of "meaty warrior swinging a lot of damage" in these other games. There has actually been a lot of expansion to what the "category" of a path is with the H&V expansion...I still don't think that means warriors need more damage.

I have to disagree that even leaving them as they are now and NOT making any changes relegates them to being "just a meat shield." Kyle hit it on the head, they seriously are the best suited combat path, both offensively AND defensively. True, their skill set is more reliable than flashy in comparison to the other paths, but I seriously believe that IS the intention.

While I had a few damage based suggestions (That weren't liked because they weren't "big" enough) now that we are further in this discussion I actually believe even LESS that they need a new damage call of ANY kind. I was game for a flat, LP driven skill (A LASH PRESS and FEAR or something neat with utility that wasn't necessarily a damage call), but I actually don't think there should be any change at all just because an OPTIONAL skill no longer stacks.

My thoughts.

I got an idea for a advanced warrior ability that allow the Warrior to swing 4 damage in 5 seconds. It is limited to medium armor. We can call it Swift Strike. How does that sound?

Francesco DeLemuerte wrote:I got an idea for a advanced warrior ability that allow the Warrior to swing 4 damage in 5 seconds. It is limited to medium armor. We can call it Swift Strike. How does that sound?

sounds like a basic rouge dip to me

if warrior is reduced to meat shield thats lame and boring and i encourage all would be warriors to go somewere else

yes warriors have high soak, but a master healer can dip into basic warrior, and bam, difference of 4 total soak, as now most paths get some form of CR at some point, aside from the big damage dealers.

What is the point of playing other classes besides a warrior?

well that would be on the GM side, and so far they have been doing a great job of writing plots that a warrior cant go smack his way through, all it would require is a locked door for a warrior to be boned.

i remember one point in great detail, were my brother came to me and told me he wanted to trade soak for skills, IE: spot, sense magic, etc. because we had been put in a situation were we were floating in a limbo like place, and all that soak and deffence dosnt count for crap if you cant do anything.

It is a Rouge dip. That's the point. For 40 points, or 20 if you do a skill swap for Spot you can utilize a charge up skill that is limited to medium armor that deals damage. If you get a sage buff and a curved dagger you can deal 6 damage every 2 seconds, and still have Parry and tons of other defensive abilities.

Ark wrote: yes warriors have high soak, but a master healer can dip into basic warrior, and bam, difference of 4 total soak,

And? Warriors get the soak without having to dip into another path and if that's your argument, I can reverse it and say if you want to do something other than straight up warrior, you can dip into the basic skills of another path.

Ark wrote: if warrior is reduced to meat shield thats lame and boring and i encourage all would be warriors to go somewere else

If the skills of warrior doesn't fit your concept, there are several other paths to choose from, INCLUDING Jack of all trades that lets you mix and match from lower tier skills. If you want to deal more damage, play a rogue. Or if you want to throw dual-wielding into the mix, play one of the dual-wielding disciplines and take the armour hit down to medium.

Ark wrote: as now most paths get some form of CR at some point, aside from the big damage dealers.

I still can't find my rulebook and I haven't been sitting at the PC long enough to download it and look. Other than Sages getting to pick a +2 CR at advanced level, who else gets straight up CR? I'm unfamiliar with what "some form of CR is." They either have access to combat reflexes or they don't.

Ark wrote: i remember one point in great detail, were my brother came to me and told me he wanted to trade soak for skills, IE: spot, sense magic, etc.

And now you can. It's called Jack of All Trades.

Ark wrote: because we had been put in a situation were we were floating in a limbo like place, and all that soak and deffence dosnt count for crap if you cant do anything.

And there are characters in this situation a lot. Your skills aren't always going to be useful in a particular instance. BUT I will say that FH/WH, even with it's stories and plots has combat. And that most things include combat. Which means the warrior is still going to be able to participate well most of the time. They are much better off, say, than the Alchemist/Craftsman.

I'm not understanding the argument, and I don't know what you are looking for, aside from being able to play a high soak path that does damage like a rogue?

Warriors aren't JUST a meat shield. They weren't before the H&V rules, and they certainly aren't after this extremely minor clarification. They are still capable of doing quite a lot of damage AND they can stand up for a long time while doing it.

If you want more damage, dip into another path, be a jack of all trades or main path rogue?

Francesco DeLemuerte wrote:It is a Rouge dip. That's the point. For 40 points, or 20 if you do a skill swap for Spot you can utilize a charge up skill that is limited to medium armor that deals damage. If you get a sage buff and a curved dagger you can deal 6 damage every 2 seconds, and still have Parry and tons of other defensive abilities.

I think this is a great suggestion too.

This thread has given me a lot of useful ideas, actually.