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I am loving this discussion it is an awesome difference of opinion. I just really wish I could have other people chime in.

I want to make sure that everyone understands, that I understand, the inherent fudge of a day and night time clock. The problem is not that we cannot all figure out day and night the problem is we cannot all agree at the exact minute/second that it occurs.

From a story standpoint I like the idea of a little fudge.

I understand this can cause arguments when dealing with PvP, but the problem is really occurring with the PvP'r attempting to cheese the system by taking advantage of the fudge. It is the rule lawyer missing the point of a rule and looking for the exact second something happens. It is the GM's you attempt to appease both sides and want to be as fair as possible.

If the player base understands, that the GM's understand, there is fudge factor, and there will be slight leniency toward the person who died then it stops the person attempting to cheese. He\she will know that the ruling will go against him\her

I hate to make this long, but I know I come off inconsistent if you don’t understand how I rule. I am always more in favor of story over rule. I will always choose to break the rule if it means that it will make a good story and doesn’t overly screw over another player. I will always give the benefit of the doubt to the player who died. I will always want the players to deal with player issues in game.

and sometimes my heart gets in the way and I go over board on the rule breaking and kill a bit of fairness.

I woul loathe the death walking around idea. You'd invite more favoritism than already exists in games. The GM/NPC walks arounf and just _happens_ to miss his budy but does see someone he doesn't normally get along with. That'd be great.

And I'd also never play where your death time is determine by how long you can endure sitting around. A player's physical discomfort is a stupid way of determining anything rule wise.

Not being able to move is fine and dandy, but it totally depends on the scene you want. Like, I'd prefer being able to crawl away because it's not often you see the hero in a movie with that bad wound just laying there? He's generally still fighting to get away, grab the weapon in front of him, etc.

LIke I said before, I think you're expecting the PC's not to act like spoiled rotten old people with alzheimers. I would have thought that all the years running a game would have taught you that no matter what, there will be a significant portion of PC's that don't understand that concept you're talking about. If you'd be ok dealing with the whining that is built into the system then thats fine. I personally wouldn't want to be a part of running a game with built in whine factor like that. Hell, I've been a part of running 1 event and an off season and I'm already tired of whining.

And I'd also never play where your death time is determine by how long you can endure sitting around. A player's physical discomfort is a stupid way of determining anything rule wise.

Really I am getting tired of a game system that allows invisibility and the whinning that creates.

What completely and totally blows my mind is how all of you currently play a system that allows a person 1 minute and you bleed to death, and all of you I assume prefer that than a slightly more ambiguous system that gives you more time beore you die. You would rather have something be more deadly?

You dont like the discomfort idea? You rather have a 1 hour idea? Well what rule do you put into place for the person who gets uncomfortable after 15 mintues. Do they get to put down a a shirt and say it is them? Then if we allow that is it fair to those willing to stick it out for an hour? The LARP itself is an endurance chalenge. Is it fair when the out of shape person is trying to fight the in shape person and runs out of steam even though we all know there character really didn't? This is hypocracy


Erik(c)s the reality is all LARPS, all games will have whinning so you have to choose what you want people to whine abot and what is fair.

Here are some of my new thoughts.

1) Life is not fair get over it.
2) Not everyone wins, get over it
3) A game system should not cater to the lowest common denominator.
4) The leaders (GM's) should lead by example

GM_Chris wrote:Really I am getting tired of a game system that allows invisibility and the whinning that creates.

...and all of you I assume prefer that than a slightly more ambiguous system that gives you more time beore you die...

You dont like the discomfort idea? ... This is hypocracy


Erik(c)s the reality is all LARPS, all games will have whinning so you have to choose what you want people to whine abot and what is fair.

Here are some of my new thoughts.

1) Life is not fair get over it.
3) A game system should not cater to the lowest common denominator.

Where did invisibility come from?

I don't like ambiguous systems. Just because the death system is different in FH and CARPS doesn't mean they are bad. FH's system is neat, a bit clumsy, but it's well defined and combats are geared around it, so it works. CARPS does the same thing for its. However, for a new system, a well defined, long time death system, with combats geared around it, will be good and possibly allow for better roleplaying, but should not more ambiguous in any way.

As for the 1 hour and discomfort, note that I never endorsed nor promoted sitting around being unable to move. I'd never say they could not phys-rep themselves, nor did I say it before. If you are critically injured, role-play it. If you think critically injured is laying there, go nuts. Personally, I'll slowly limp away, heel toe-ish. And LARP is not an endurance challenge. Combat maybe, but not LARP.

#1 may be true but that's not an excuse to write a half assed system rule wise. Both FH and CARPS were released in very "spirit of the rules" formats and both have been heavily scrutinzed since. Do you think a new system based on that same logic will fare any better, regardless of uniqueness of the rules?

#3 I assume is refering to a rules system and it's not something I agree with. I only assume the the person reading has a passable ability to speak and read english. That's it.

We aren't really talking about how deadly a system is, like I've said many times in these discussions you simply can't look at one portion of a system and make a statement like that. Maybe in this system you're talking about you can have 500 soak and the most damage you can do is 5. Even if you make it go to 0 and die, do not pass go, do not collect $200 isn't that less deadly than the current FH system?

So we are talking about the aspects of the system that is listed in each post, which if I'm looking at the metrics of each part of the system I'm going to try and make it as clear and concise as possible, and yes that means pandering to the lowest common denominator. If you can eliminate potential problems in the process of writing the system then why not do it? I'd rather not have players coming to me bitching because someone didn't understand a rule or how something was written. I understand that is going to happen anyway but why not decrease the frequency? Things not being clearly defined and concise snowball.

Why so much disdain for the average common person that has never tabletopped and barely graduated high school? I want that person to come out and enjoy themselves just as much as any nerd or geek would.

I think it needs to be pointed out that all of this is opinion so none of it is "stupid" or "flat out wrong" and those first two things on that list really have nothing to do with a LARP system. 3 & 4 are strictly opinions, some peoples opinion is that GM's should know every rule in the book back and forth, so do you lead by example that way Chris? And if your rules have a lot of ambiguity in them you are giving the impression that the rules are just a guideline to be ignored if you want to. And unfortunately that doesn't fly for PC's, even if the GM's lead by example and do it.

Wow, that was well thought out and well put, Temple. I commend you and as such have amended my post.
(don't let it go to your head.)

invisibility if physrepping yourself. I hate the entire concept of physrepping yourself. I have had PC's go "Oh crap if I knew that tissue was Reid I would have killed him while he was injuerd in bed"
Reid would say "If I was currently playing that tissue you wouldnever try and kill me."

invisibility takes away from the game

Let me help define Lowest common denominator.

It is saying "I know you have a tunic and sweats, but I want you toplay so we will allow that to count as full plate"

The result is over time the NPC's and the PC's slowly all start wearing sweats and tunics because frankly it is hot some days and that outfit is more comphy. (I understand that for the longest time that was all my brother wore)

When we try and reward peole like Doug in full armor, or Reid who spent the time on his costume we get the whinning that we are catering to the rich and rewarding money. I would say we are rewarding quality.

We have several viable paths that do not involve waring full plate.

There are a bunch of these types of examples and I understand that GM's walking around in standard NPC issue cnstums for every encounter does not help the situation.

Now the flip side I like the fact that it is cheap to play our game. I HATE the elite systems that some people put out.

There just needs to be a balance. A person can have a good attitude and dress well.
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As you pointed out the combat aspects of a LARP is an endurance test so I see o reason why death couldnt be. If you could be moved to a bed, then as long as the healing process is quick ( I am agreeing with you on that point) then the situation of lieing on the ground is one where your friends have over looked you. You should not be able o get up and walk to the inn. You should not be able to physrep yourself. You could Yell perhaps, but if no one comes to your aid then you as a player have a choice. DO you sit and wait or do you accept your death. I love the concept.

I could probably last an hour, some 10 minutes. Who know.

There are 2 different groups of larps. The first group are number orientated and like well defined boundrias. Then there are those who like the story side and would like losse rules. Neither are correct, neither are wrong.

What needs to happen find a happy medium in between.
Chris, I see you as a very creative person who has many wonderful ideas and concepts. I see myself taking these ideas and create a well defined boundary where this ideas can work in. The boundary and rules are required so everyone is playing at the same level.

The rules should not require GM to police them, or GM's to lead by example. The rules should be staright foward and simple and cover 95% of everyone's questions.

I personal don't care how long a person takes to bleed to death. The point is I would like to see a set number of X time. And I agree with Eric/Erik that it is up to the PC on how they RP their bleed to death time.

This is just my opinion. And keep this dialog up, we have come up with some good ideas for a new larp system.

And then others may have to tend to other "needs". Do they deal with them then and there or accept death? If they die in a combat, do they get trampled or accept death? If it's 96 degrees and they die and have no water, do they die or risk sunburn and dehydration? Physical needs should not be a factor in rules.

As for phys-repping yourself, who ever said that was a good idea? I don't think anyone in this thread.

Lets focus on this you die when you decide to get up.

Eric I am sorry but you have a double standard here. In combat a person has choices they have to make. Do they continue on knowing they are tired. Do we risk sunburn and dehydration? This happens all the time.

No one would be unreasonable. I understand that you should be allowed to eat or drink and things like that. No one should litterally kill themselves. What makes these rules suck are environments that are elite to the detriment of the game. As in Kanar when my car broke down and I needed a phone and was told "What is a phone" and revieved no help from ANYONE" No one in our game systems ask that way because we expect actual human beings to play.

In most situations a "bleeding" to death person is going to get helped by friends so sitting around for hours is not going to happen. If it does happen I would presume the person must enjoy sitting around instead of making a new character.

One good thing is it gives people more control over "when they die"

Ok I think I know where we are having problems communicating. let me propose what I am thinking in a different way

Death and Dieing

A character may continue to fight as normal to the point he/she is at -1 life. At this point the character is considered to be “On Deaths Door”, and may not utilize any skills unless the skill specifically states that it is usable "On deaths door". The character may not move. The character may continue to talk however he/she feels appropriate for a dyeing character.

Article 1 Safety
When a person hits negative 1 it is likely combat will be happening or the ground is not suitable to lie on. In the case of a safety issue the character who just died may choose to move themselves to a place that is more safe. It is suggested, though not necessary, to be done in a role playing fashion.

Article 2 End of event
At the end of an event any person who is "At Deaths Door" is considered dead.

Sub article 2 section A: End of SceneIf a situation arises where a character dies close to game off the scene will be completed before calling a game off, at which point see Article 2 "end of event:


Sub Article 2 to sub section A rule Alpha: No time for end of scene
In the rare case that there is no time to complete the scene then the scene, if the GM allows will be played out at the beginning of next event.

Sub Article 2 to sub section A rule Beta
If a PvP event happens close to the end of the event the killing player has the choice to "finish the scene" and perform a killing blow (see killing blow page 21) . if the a killing blow is not performed then the person who was killed has the option next event to appear where the death occurred completely alive or a story may be worked out with the GM's

Article 3 Player Chooses Death
At any time a player “On Deaths Door” may choose to give up and die. (See Death page 22)

Healing those on Deaths Door
A person on Deaths Door is hard to heal and it requires special skills. (See skill section page 10)

Surgery page 10
A person with surgery may attempt to bring back a person who is at Deaths Door. To do this the person dying must draw 5 chips from the healing bag. Drawing a red chip means the surgery has failed and the person is dead. (See Death page 22)
Please note that a person may have skills that allows them to draw more or less than 5 chips. A person must always choose at least 1 chip no matter how many bonuses they might get to a chip draw. It is up to the person with the skill to inform the healer in a preferably RP way. For example: I am not ready to die! (My brother has a neat idea here but I am going to just work on 1 thing at a time so as to not confuse)

Recovering From "On Deaths Door"
Once you healed and reach 0 or positive life your character is exhausted. It takes 10 minutes to recover from being exhausted. See the effects of exhausted on page 21

Death
Death is final, but all death must have a death scene. A death scene may last as long as you would like it to, even to the end of the event. You may not use any skills while you are having your death scene. You may not get out of bed or where ever you have been "put". You should role play as if you are dyeing talking in hushed tones. Once your death scene is over you are dead and may then get up and go to NPC camp to NPC, or write up a ne character.

Resurrection

Article 1
Any character who dies may work with the Plot group to bring their character back. The burden for the plot will be on the player and it will take a minimum to 6 months, but more likely a year before the plot is run, if it is chosen.

Article 2
Periodically there will be a magic item, plot or what have you which will allow resurrection of a character. These items are rare and usually have great cost associated with them. Each will be a unique item on antiquity.

Chris,

Under the safety article 1, do you have kill your self to move to a safe place? It is not clear to me what you are trying to say.

Are you saying you can move when you are at death's door only for safety reasons (aka, crawl out of people way in a mass battle so you don't stepped on?)

Maybe instead of dying if you move, you can crawl up to 10ft or X feet from the spot you died at to postion yourself in a safer place so you don't get stepped on during a combat.

Also, what happens if another person moves you. Do you die?

The moving yourself while "On Deaths Door" was to put in writting what has always been reasonably practiced. When you hit -1 you are allowed to get out of the way if you choose so you dont get stepped on, or sit in a pile of water or what have you.

Once a nice place is found (not back at the inn) you must lie down and act like your dieing.

Article 3 says that you are allowed to killyourself at anytime.

I want to point out the difference. I am not saying "if you move you die" anywhere. All I said was while "On Deaths Door" you cannot move. Th I follow up in Article 3 that you are allowed to kill yourself at anytime.

I understand and I like it!

I would just add in that after you are brought out of negatives you can not use and skills and swing zero damage for x period of time.

By the way, Kelly likes your death idea. having a person being death and taking random people while there bleeding to death, but still have bleed to death limit of dying at the end of the event.