Rule changes and clarifications

[General Maximus]

That works for me!!

[Kalphoenix]

I heard a few people bitching about Sage-Hints (Pre-game Lore) at the last game (That they were too random and most people feel they got useless hints), but unless they speak up, I can't say I didn't like the idea. But I also didn't play a sage at the last event.

Another concern is about resource bins/storage: I see most groups using small plastic bins to store resource tags, which isn't a problem as most people then use a larger area for storing them (IE: A represented Vault). However I keep hearing disturbing trends, that people are bringing large amounts of tags to an event and then hiding them under their beds. Considering how much space resources take up (And the fact that you need a structure or a PROPERLY phys-repped box to hold them in, I think the convenience factor of the smaller bins is confusing people. It should be clarified: Resources take up a certain amount of space. You can't hide fifty food/steel/hide/whatever tokens under your bed.

Or can you? Please clarify for me.

[marduk]

not to be a rules lawyer, but there is a statement in the rules about the required dimensions of a physrep for a resource tag. If those were enforced, we would have no problem with "ghost" respources. But I would like to stay away from that can of worms...see alchemy debate.

[Adam]

Note the mimic skill only effects level 1 disapline skills, and basic paths skills.

Mimic
With this skill the Sage may mimic ANY first level Discipline or Path except for wilderness survival, Alchemy, and Arcane. It takes 15 minutes to receive the skill, but the skill lasts until the Sage mimics a different skill. Any armor restrictions of the mimicked skill still apply.

The first quote is from a previous post here, and the other is a cut-and -paste from the PDF version of the 2007 rule book.
Which is true? First level Path or BASIC Path skills? There is a difference.

[GM_Chris]

Basic path Skills.

As for people complaining was it those sages with lore or was it scouts.

The scouts I can see the complaint. The lore? I know Melissa Loved it. I know Vince loved it.

We had 4 sages I believe last event. Let me check the other thread and see if I can narrow this down to who or whom was the person not liking it.

[Adam]

Basic path Skills.

(I'm really not trying to be off topic but that probably need to be clarified in future editons of the rulebook because I know there are Sages who are not playing it that way)

[Peace420]

Uhm, you don't HAVE to sit around waiting for the sage to learn another skill, which I thought they had to witness anyway. You picked the wrong skill, too dang bad, you and your party have the choice of waiting around 15 minutes or going on with whatever you were doing and not be twinked out. Yes, I realize that may be a foreign concept to some people but everything doesn't have to be maxed out all the time. Assasins have a "combat" skill that is 1 munite, how useful do think it's ever going to be? Maybe 1 shot a combat, and thats if they have 1 minute plus whatever time for charging another skill.

Personally, I think players should always do as much as possible to elevate the game and the burden should be on players more than the GM’s. Maybe that is the republican in me. I just do not believe in raising the price of a game (taxes) so we the GM (government) can provide the stuff to the players. I would rather keep the game price low and come up with a minimum requirement for dress and physreps that is attainable, while maintaining a cool look. Then I look to the players to spend money to make themselves look as cool as they can and then help their fellow gamer out so they can look cool too.

Chris, just so you know the last 3 Republican presidents have all raised taxes going back as far as some of the player base has been alive. But the rest sounds like Republican. I got mine, even if it was handed to me, and I don't understand why everyone else can't just go out and get theirs? All you plebians should be working harder and spending more so my company does better! (Note: this should not be taken as a disparaging comment towards the GM staff in any way)


The alchemist is too flexible, yet the arcane has a spell that will let you do ANY skill in the game as long as you have someone willing to take a charge time or life cost hit. I look down the list of spells that arcane has and they do ALOT more different types of things than alchemy can, but that is how it is supposed to be. Alchemist can make themselves pretty tough and they have a couple utility potions and can heal. Arcanes do everything else AND they can transmute things into other things. An arcane could literally sit in a field of dead people and in 24hours +10-15 minutes have their own army of undead, an alchemist could make 1 4th level potion and maybe 4 first level potion. Arcanes can be hidden or inside a building casting spells well out of harms way. They are completely different systems and should stay that way. Like Chris said, if each is complaining the other is more powerful it's probably as close to right as it can be.

Are there dimensions in the book for a resource "tag" or for boxes that hold resources? The little boxes I use are for organization sake, they don't get "hidden" unless they are in a spot that isn't out in the open.

We don't have a game where you have to be able to do EVERYTHING that your character could do, we don't carry people, although some of us have done it, we have skills to compensate for not being able to fight well, we have a skill that frickin' makes you and the tent you just went inside, that really isn't there disappear for geebus sake! So the hardcore "only do" stuff can be saved for LARPs where you have to wear period underwear and most Euro LARPs. And I STILL have yet to see any of the people that advocate phys repping absolutely EVERYTHING do it. Isn't this pretty much the exact same discussion that came up in the off season? Last year it was resources, I think there needs to be some wiggle room for phys repping.

Now as far as drinking potions, you should have to have the tag and read it, that would simulate the drinking time AND would make sure you read the effect and not just the label. I think having other people hand you vials filled with some mystery liquid you have to drink is ridiculous, but thats just me. Even if I played in a game where they required that I'd dump it out or if I was inside a building pretend, seeing as that is what we REALLY are doing to drink it and hand the phys rep back. If that didn't fly with the GM's of the game I simply wouldn't play that game anymore. Maybe require a single phys rep that can be used over and over, but then what about potions you give off to someone else?

[Torakhan]

Basic path Skills.

As for people complaining was it those sages with lore or was it scouts.

The scouts I can see the complaint. The lore? I know Melissa Loved it. I know Vince loved it.

We had 4 sages I believe last event. Let me check the other thread and see if I can narrow this down to who or whom was the person not liking it.

Warning: Rumor ahead!

I heard that the biggest issue with the Sage Hints was the imbalance in the ones given out. Someone apparently got a "hint" that gave the location, name and how to defeat an enemy, while someone else got "X and Y are weird." I don't know the truths of these, but that was the complaint. Now, if the hints were balanced all around, maybe they would have been viewed better? I don't know. I didn't hear any complaints at the event when I asked folks. It was only after that some folks seemed to complain... not about having gotten them the way that they did, but just in what was given to whom.

[GM-Mike]

All of the hints had valuable information within them. That is all I can guarantee. Just because one appeared to be, shall we say, stupid, does not mean that it was. For example, the conversation overheard about Gol and Em had a great wealth of clues into what was going on with them. That particular piece simply made you work a little harder and you needed to have a greater understanding of the plot as a whole. I believe that the sage that that went to happened to have the least understanding of that plot. I think the "problem" with the system is that you could get a hint on a plot that you have never heard of and perhaps never will. It's not a problem if there is a lot of communication going on but we know that does not always exist. As always, there are plusses and minuses.

[GM_Chris]

Well you can definilty get hints of plots you do not know about, but just think....this is a way for more people to get involved on plots.

You get some piece of information and it makes no sence. BAM you just got handed your own plot and now you have to go out. It actually will help plot hordning in the future.

It MIGHT stop another Corbyn since information will be harder to control by 1 person or group.

We sent a prophisy into game via sage and we brought it in via NPC. Now if the PC who got the lore did not hear the NPC then wow did that work exactly as intended. It means you didn't have to be in town to hear it. Oh and since fullfilling that prophesy was the most important piece of lore in the game fullfilling it would have probably meant Corbyn would have lost.

[Esmerelda]

As far as complaining about what was given to who- we got to pick our pieces of paper randomly that had the hints on them, so it's nobody's "fault" but the player as to what they pulled from the pile!

[dier_cire]

The alchemist is too flexible, yet the arcane has a spell that will let you do ANY skill in the game as long as you have someone willing to take a charge time or life cost hit. I look down the list of spells that arcane has and they do ALOT more different types of things than alchemy can, but that is how it is supposed to be. Alchemist can make themselves pretty tough and they have a couple utility potions and can heal. Arcanes do everything else AND they can transmute things into other things

Is it really any skill? I've heard that is is a specfic subset, which is cool, but any skill is overpowered (courese arcane also has some seriously overpowered crap anyway). As for alchemy, the original intent (going way back) was that alchemy could do the same things as modern pharmecuticals could. It's gone well beyond those bounds as well.

Personally, I think both systems are overpowered in their current forms if half the rumors I've heard are true. Both have gotten into a realm of "this spell is cool, but this would be better" realm, causing an ever increasing one upsmanship. A cap on the most powerful spell needs to be made and nothing can ever go beyond it. There is no time or resource cost that can balance a super powered spell or potion.

[Kalphoenix]

And I STILL have yet to see any of the people that advocate phys repping absolutely EVERYTHING do it. Isn't this pretty much the exact same discussion that came up in the off season? Last year it was resources, I think there needs to be some wiggle room for phys repping.

I agree with you that there needs to be wiggle-room in phys-repping. Some of us (myself in particular) have finally decided to go along with the folks who choose to do less, since we are putting our characters at risk for no reward (I'm talking alchemists and others phys-repping). I know most people who phys-rep do so in the hope that they are setting a good example, but most people are sliding down, not raising themselves up. Why should I brew potions with phys-reps that people can see when it isn't being enforced? I'm only putting myself at risk and I won't get any benefit out of it. I'm jaded, I admit it, but I wasn't when I started. I've gotten that way over the years.

I'm also talking about people who put their resource-tags in bins with their personal gear (IE: RL clothing/meds/etc). These "Out-of-game" containers need a rule to have them marked in some way so characters know NOT to interact with them and players do NOT put items that are in-play in them. It's hard to find six food or steel tags in a chest/bag under clothing. It wouldn't be if the food was the actual size it is. You see my point? I consider that cheese-dicking, but, unfortunately, it's not against the rules. But if I don't do the same, I'm putting myself at a distinct disadvantage. And if I get caught stealing IC and choose to report the folks doing this to the GMs, who get no more than a warning (Because there is no rule against it), the damage is already done. Containers need to be clearly tagged and phys-repped (Especially as IC or OOC items) yeah, they take up a lot of room but you can make a collapsible one, after all, we require phys-reps for armor and weapons and are supposed to for containers as well. I don't have a problem with keeping them in containers between games. I do with having them in small plastic sorting containers once the game is on. The same with invisible brewing potions. Common sense says that alchemy should probably be a fairly visible process that requires a certain amount of room and stability to perform accurately. The same with deciding whether or not I should phys-rep finished potion tags. But we live in a fantasy world here, so we can't say something should be common sense (See my Arcane armor argument), things HAVE to be defined for the players.

My point is that the absolute minimum needs to be raised and better defined for the folks who don't see it as necessary.

There are plenty of people who have been leading by example regarding phys-reps/props for a long time who haven't changed anything or made anyone else step up to their level. I don't have the patience, myself, to put myself at a disadvantage regarding spending time and money on phys-reps. To those who still do, you martr yourselves for us all.

I sadly accept and remand myself to the following:

That, I will have to deal with a ringing cell-phone at least once a game, if not more. I accept that people will bring non-period containers and not take an effort to cover them up. I accept that people will have lengthy non-game-related conversations where there are large gatherings of people. I accept that people will whip out their filtered, store bought cigarettes and lighters because they can't get more period tools. I accept that I have finally sunk to that level as well. I attempt to utilize my suspension of disbelief, which I am pretty good at, even though ALL of these things are easily taken care of. I accept that I don't HAVE to do any better than they do.

I will utilize phys-reps insofar as I enjoy them and they do not put ME at a disadvantage. But it is not my job, as a player, to provide them so you can enjoy the scene, but not contribute.

[Lambic]

I think that was well said Heidi. I know I pushed a lot harder to do my best at the beginning too and that I too am guilty of slacking.

[General Maximus]

I have to agree with you hedi. The minium physrep requirements should be inforced. The one's who do it are at a disadvantage. This is a pet pive of mine, why should I spend all this time, money and effort, if the next person does not do it. I even spent a lot of time and in game resources to make a vault to store all my groups resources. I could have spent those resources and time to create soemthign else, becasue the rule was not being enforced. Now, I wills till physrepping all my tag's and follow the rules, becasue I believe one should follow the rules.

I made sure all the items I had where physreped and made sure the vault where all the orders resources tags where physreped. I had the entire building taged. If anyone ever did break into the vault, there where tags and box's that people could have read and know what they could take and what they could not