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Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:10 am
by Phinkis
Kalphoenix wrote:A slippery slope to what players think they are entitled to for donations. We did this our first year at WH and it led to SERIOUS bickering that led to several upset players and and at least one quitting. The problem? People made donations strictly for the sake of getting something in return and were pissed when the rewards weren't "good enough" for what they donated.
While this was before my time I have heard of this issue. The difference is that there were no guide lines before. This is exactly the type of thing a system like this helps defuse before it starts. Players would know before they decide to donate what they can get.
When I was at WH, at one point, the staff paid players at LEAST for the cost of materials for the items created. I'd rather see this trend continue, if people can't afford to outright donate, and instead just wanted to donate their time (which is fine).
There are two problems with this. First and most obvious is the fact that this isn't financially possible at the moment, at least not at WH and from the sounds of it FH either. The second problem is people are more likely to help out if they see some sort of return. Is that selfish, maybe, but it's also perfectly understandable that people, who have busy everyday lives, don't want to use their free time crafting things for LARP.
If people want a better game, costuming, physreps and such, LARP is a group effort. If it's important for you to see a different quality in the game, step up and help out. Your reward is seeing a better game and that is all there should be to it.
That would be great in a utopian world. I know there are more than a few people that feel this way and these people are awesome. The reality, however, is that the players are already paying to play. Giving the players their monies worth is up to the staff.
Unless maybe you feel staff should be paid, like for a job? After all, they spend a ton of time on the game and should get something too, right?
I think most of the staff do it because they enjoy it and because they are some of those awesome people I mentioned before.
Is this related? I don't know, but I've largely quit every game that has gone micro-transaction as I watch the quality plummet (and distinctions drawn between players).
Well first off the idea of this system is to try to increase quality. Secondly, even if you were allowed to purchase your level up to 1000 and had one of every basic item, exotic item and potion, which would never be allowed, you're still going to have vulnerabilities and are in no way impossible to kill. That's the way the FH system is. You may be a bad ass but a small group will still take you down if they put their minds to it.
Wyrmwrath wrote:I would spend hours debating the wrongness of the fact you think thats even logical....if I thought anything we all say will even impact the values the GMs set.
It's not that hard to explain my logic. People who have an abundance of money probably don't need to worry about getting $10 off of an event. When you pay to play the game you are buying a service. These rewards are given for people who donate their time and money for the betterment of the game. The key word there being donate. If it was the same price as paying for the game then there would be no donation, it would just be an alternate way of paying for the event.

Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:30 am
by Wyrmwrath
its early, I am not wearing glasses, and I havent had breakfeast so this will NOT be organised...

I am totaly ok with Staff getting "paid to cover things like the food they eat and the gas they use. Any other rewads they get should be points from the system and the awesome fun they have catering to the every whim and entertainment of the player base.... yeah...that.

The only time there arent SET point values for donations, if the system is set up as I am used to, is when someone is offering knick knacks.... a cool wand to be used as a prop, a chrystal skull, costume jewelry fro magic items, latex masks for moster NPCs, etc...
These are evaluated, generally given values a tad above thier dollar value UNLESS the item is very cool and useful for a plot or NPC OR needed by staff/requested.

I say we give Heidi 00 status to hanfdle players that abuse the system. Lets make her 003.14159265

Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:06 pm
by Kalphoenix
Like I said...I'm not 100% against the idea...it depends on the implementation, and yes, there are some aspects I am 100% against giving.

Points that offer a way to a goal as a minor incentive...ok. A system that feels like you are donating to earn rewards, no. The point system needs to be low return.

Levels = No. Well, maybe. Lets say you missed X events in a year. I have no problem with you paying for those X events (or making donations of whatever) to make up those levels. I DO have a problem with being able to earn levels above and beyond what you would normally earn in a LARP season for attending. No retroactive payments obviously from before the system gets started, and the payments NEED to be made during the active season.

Magic items = JUST NO. Magic items should be a reward for in-game actions, even if that's as simple as paying a source to find it in-game. You should have to be in-game to earn magic items. PERIOD. You should never be able to earn them through out of game actions.

One shots = Simple potions or effects...things that are used once and done, things that cannot be recharged. Sure, fine in limited supply and low-effect, as long as it's not taking anything away from the current potion makers. Why would I be an arcane and make potions if it's just as reasonable to donate some stuff and get a bunch of them instead?

Crafted items = I am SUPER iffy on these because of my argument below and again, because it takes something away from an existing set of in-game skills. Same with commodities.

One argument I hear CONSTANTLY about FH/WH is that the system is made to create interdependency between players. If it's reasonably easy to make a donation and get items, that argument goes right out the ***king window and we might as well overhaul the system again to make it more solo friendly.

I rather see: "We need the following items, we will be accepting these items between these two dates for them. Whomever donates these items will receive (Enter limited-use item/s here). If you give multiple donations in this period, you get multiples of said item." Or pick a couple different items to choose from, but not the whole economy. Makes it easy, and you know what's going into the game. Mix it up every couple of months and offer a different set of items.

No point system to keep track of (Have fun with that, by the way, or picking someone the player base won't bitch is screwing it up). Nothing going into the game to mess up balance or upset the economy. No arguments about fairness. No muss, no fuss. No players planning some big thing by stockpiling items granted out of game. Don't like what's available for donating this time around? Don't donate. In fact, in this case, I'd be more open to offering longer use items, such as commodities and equipment.

They are my opinions, I am offering them because I give a shit, not because I am trying to be obstinate or argumentative. Mostly. :P

Incentive. Bonus. Thank you. NOT a micro-transaction trade system.

Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:50 pm
by Wyrmwrath
A system that feels like you are donating to earn rewards, no.


The current lack of a system shows how motivated people are to donate/volunteer when no reward is given. The current level of support is low.
Rewards for donations of time, effort, and in a small amount financial support of various kinds, only benefits the system IF the values the rewards are "priced at " after fair but not cheap.

The point system needs to be low return.
Low return might as well be no rewards, since people will need a reason to pay for events AND dedicate more time, effort, and funds for donations. A reward system motivates people who need just a puch over the edge to begin helping more.

Levels = I DO have a problem with being able to earn levels above and beyond what you would normally earn in a LARP season for attending.
I find that surpising since there is already a system that does just that in place.... ya get 4 levels for NPCing. The only difference in the proposed system is two fold:
1) ya dont HAVE to take levels if you would rather have oither stuff.
2) ya dont have to drive across the state to NPC if your able to make a half dozen costumes and a score of weapons and thereby not miss the one weekend a month you get to see your kid that lives outta state. Yes I am using a personal example, but it well makes my point.

No retroactive payments obviously from before the system gets started
agreed

the payments NEED to be made during the active season.


why? The off season is the BEST time for people to make costuming, props, phys reps, tarps since there arent any events to prep for. A player could just set aside a wekend and find and /or make donation.
If he gathers enough to pay for 4 levels how is that any less significant than NPCing for a weekend?
If you mean paying for rewards, its not fair to put a deadline on a player making a choice on how to spend the points he or she has earned. Not that I can see any way buying levels in December would have ANy affect on anything as opposed to doing it at the check in of a January one day.

Magic items = JUST NO. Magic items should be a reward for in-game actions, even if that's as simple as paying a source to find it in-game. You should have to be in-game to earn magic items. PERIOD. You should never be able to earn them through out of game actions.


Totally agree.

One shots = Simple potions or effects...things that are used once and done, things that cannot be recharged. Sure, fine in limited supply and low-effect, as long as it's not taking anything away from the current potion makers. Why would I be an arcane and make potions if it's just as reasonable to donate some stuff and get a bunch of them instead?
This is exactly the area where the staff has to make sure the system doesnt overshadow the skills in game. The point costs would have to be enough to be fair but also enough to not make it an easy decision, AND the staff can limit what potions are available. Maybe there is a system where any potion request inbetween to evets is taken by the same fictisious NPC and all requests between June and July for potion are from the same list so not EVERY potion effect is available. There do need to be checks and balances, never said there didnt.
To more answer your question directly, your an arcane...alchemist...warrior...orc...because thats what you wanna play. If your playing any skill set fo any other reason than thats what you want to play and it fits your role playing concept, your doing it for the wrong reason

Crafted items = I am SUPER iffy on these because of my argument below and again, because it takes something away from an existing set of in-game skills. Same with commodities.


A similar responce as above applies to this as does any non magic in game item. Your putting to much value on in game items, an occasional small influx will not bring the apocolypse.

One argument I hear CONSTANTLY about FH/WH is that the system is made to create interdependency between players. If it's reasonably easy to make a donation and get items, that argument goes right out the ***king window and we might as well overhaul the system again to make it more solo friendly.


If the donated item is easy to make, it shouldnt be worth many points. Ive stated as much ad nausiem...or however thats spelled. the points are to reward effort...more effort more points...minimal effort minimal points. Its common sense really.

I rather see: "We need the following items, we will be accepting these items between these two dates for them. Whomever donates these items will receive (Enter limited-use item/s here). If you give multiple donations in this period, you get multiples of said item." Or pick a couple different items to choose from, but not the whole economy. Makes it easy, and you know what's going into the game. Mix it up every couple of months and offer a different set of items.

If you think it makes it easy, you have no or not enough experience with a reward point system that works.


No point system to keep track of (Have fun with that, by the way, or picking someone the player base won't bitch is screwing it up). Nothing going into the game to mess up balance or upset the economy. No arguments about fairness. No muss, no fuss. No players planning some big thing by stockpiling items granted out of game. Don't like what's available for donating this time around? Don't donate. In fact, in this case, I'd be more open to offering longer use items, such as commodities and equipment.
The points arent even really hard to track at all.... Player donates, he gets a GM signed reciept for the ammount the player was given. Staff can chose to make themselves a copy to ensure subjective values arent allover the place, but the players keep track. Lose the reciept, points are lost. period. Stops any extra work for staff on tracking points or players bitching.
The items bought have no chance to spoil any economy in game unless the donation values and reward costs are off.
What difference does it matter if the items they stockpile were obtained in game or out of game? Since the rules that apply to any in game item would apply to these.

They are my opinions, I am offering them because I give a shit, not because I am trying to be obstinate or argumentative. Mostly.


I think everyone knows. I am just making counter points because im an obstinate and argumentative rat basterd as anyone at FH will tell ya...

I also wanna see the GMs be able to do more because they have more and need to put less effort in to do so... This is a very selfish goal since that mean I have more fun at events.
:lol:

I personally am going to use some of my points to hire a proof reader for my posts....

Incentive. Bonus. Thank you. NOT a micro-transaction trade system.
I have no idea what that is but it sounds painful. Do you wake up in a motel tub full of ice after that?

Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:38 pm
by GM_Chris
Thought I would just let those watching this thread know where the GM's are.

1) 98% sure we will implement a point system.
2) There will be limitations of some sort, but not for any of the reasons currently given. :)
3) The rewards will be such to ensure the stuff that needs done is done.
4) The rewards will be balanced between cash and service as I am not a raciest.

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:30 pm
by Garritt
Once Again, why not just give out hero-points????

They are so rare, they can be good currency for rewarding hard work (for instance, in four years and three characters at FH, I have only ever received Hero Points though levels).

I have a level 24 character at WH who already has two hero points, purely from the GM's in reward for helping with camp clean-up and putting up/taking down caves.

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 6:29 pm
by Wyrmwrath
because not everone will chose those over other potential rewards, but the staff COULD chose to include them in the list of things the points can be used to buy....at a stiff price obviously.

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:23 pm
by cole45
hero points are just not small enough.


I'm not going to give u hero point for a 5 dollar bag of zip ties. But accrue that over a year? Two? okay then.

this gives the people more choices, which is fine.

Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 7:37 am
by Wyrmwrath
*starts searching dejectedly for my zip tie reciept to head back to the store*

Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:09 am
by Salvatore_Tenhammers
There is a LARP called SOLARR that has a system much like the one above (they call them Goblin Points) and they have a pretty decent list of what you get points for and what those points can be spent on.

Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:30 am
by Kalphoenix
A couple of those comments got lost in translation, I will clarify:

Levels -

I meant that catchup levels needed to be paid or donated for in-season (Too hard to keep track of after that) and that the cap on level gain needed to be the same as what you would gain in a season had you made all the events.

For example, if you played all four events at one chapter, you would not be eligable to donate/pay for an event for levels. If you missed one and made three, you could buy/donate. My beef is that you shouldn't be able to gain more levels above and beyond what you gain in a season. Four events is 16 levels. Miss two events, you can make up eight within that season.

I believe WH already recently allows you to pay for a missed event and gain those four levels, so I don't have a problem with the level gain UP to what you would gain in a year. No one is entitled to more than that, period.

I think it's okay to donate to play catchup WITHIN a season. Going above and beyond that is paying money for advancement, and I adamantly think this is wrong.

I'm okay with the points value for donating being higher if the purchasables are pretty limited in scope: Catchup levels, hero points, one-shot potions/items of any variety, that's it. I am really, really against any economy-based items of any kind, it absolutely destroys the supposed "theme" of the game, and I haven't even seen a HINT of any argument that will convince me otherwise so far, but none of the things I just mentioned would bother me.

I will see what the system is before I flip my lid. I'm still skeptical, especially because things aren't kept straight as it is, and I think it's super messy with multiple chapters, unless you:

A.) Have a separate staffie who staffs/npcs (But doesn't PC), makes it to both games and can handle the system.

B.) Have two operationally identical but separate point systems.

Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 9:22 am
by Wyrmwrath
I think it's okay to donate to play catchup WITHIN a season. Going above and beyond that is paying money for advancement, and I adamantly think this is wrong.
Thats because your only thinking of the players buying things and donating them. MOST of the rewards in these type of systems come from EFFORT based donations. So its not really a cash for levels thing, since cash powered donations(as opposed toeffort powered onbes) tend to not be as meaty a reward.

I am really, really against any economy-based items of any kind, it absolutely destroys the supposed "theme" of the game, and I haven't even seen a HINT of any argument that will convince me otherwise so far
And I havent seen a scrap of data or an argument that can support the notion that it would destroy the "theme" of the game...



I would be more than happy to be the coordinator, as it wouldnt be the first time. I am confused why you think the coordinator needs to not PC.

Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:06 pm
by GM_Chris
MOST of the rewards in these type of systems come from EFFORT based donation
who said? It will be approximately equal between strait cash and "effort" or it wont happen

Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:14 pm
by Zydana
Wyrmwrath wrote: I am confused why you think the coordinator needs to not PC.
probably the metagaming rule

Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:17 pm
by GM_Chris
what meta gaming rule?