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Meh, just do what I did.

I had just gotten into the game, and was just about to really begin playing up Durgan's background like I wanted to, and suddenly all the crap from the last event happened, crap which I never even had a chance to learn about (how the hell did I know that Corbyn's wings were a clue to how bad a guy he was, I had never played a LARP before 6 months ago, and thought it was part his backstory in this particular one! Especially when asking other players/characters never cleared up much....)

So I said fine, screw it. I'll create a new character exactly as if my beloved Guthrie had actually lived through the Night of the Burning Skulls, experiencing something terrible and life-changing that caused him to become much less childish and inquisitive, and a bit more jaded and bitter. As if he had finally had enough of the 'adventure' and now wanted revenge for the killing of all his friends and family. He'll just have a different story about how he was there.

That's Daine.


The only thing I hope never happens is much of a PVP enviroment. We as a gpoup work together little enough without having to constantly look over our shoulders for some one ready to gank us in some stupid and uninteresting way. If I want PVP, there are plenty of online games I can play PVP in that cost way less a month than the 25 bucks an event I pay to work alongside friends to complete goals. PVP in this game would add too much OOG politics to what already exists.

I invest way too much personally in creating and fleshing out a character (in both time, thought, and money) to play PVP, considering the armor costs, attire, weapons, and knick-nacks that add character. I don't care a whit if I lose a WoW character to PVP, because I can just respawn.

Oh no! We are back to PvP.

Look we can institute a no PvP environment, but it will feel artiicial. We would have to remove PvP theft, PvP fights, PvP confrontation.

So basically you could disagree with another player, you could shout and be all dramatic, but you would feel a sense of peace that the person you aer yelling at could never actually hurt you.

I mean lets say a player fell in love with an NPC character or lets take any recurring charcter you might have a relationship with.

Now a PC, who is evil, goes in and kills that NPC. You wish to take revenge on the person who killed your beloved. Well I am sorry but the person could laugh at you and tell you that they specifically killed your love just to cause you pain knowing that you could never really hurt them in return.

Is this the environment that you really want to play in?

I would much prefer a world of danger. This is not that I expect PvP, but on the contrary I wish for all players to get along. I want good to win over evil. I want epic story. I want sorrow and joy.

You can reuse a lot of a costume and change certain details to make yourself look physically different cheaply, and you can do alot to make your personality alot different. Is this really about monitary cost or the about the emotional cost with a character dies?

I didn't mean to stir the pot about PVP, or in any way get a confrontation going, I was just adding my two cents. I do know the playtesting in the morning on the one-day revolved entirely around PVP, because I took part. It was all about whether several low level players could take down a higher level player.

Is this really about monitary cost or the about the emotional cost with a character dies?

Six of one, half a dozen of the other. I finally get a backstory for a character, and he very likely dies in a way that barely gave me a way to make a good ending, if it's at all PVP. On the other hand, If I make a set of armor for a character, and he dies, I have certain choices (both RP and in game rules-wise) I have to make if I want to use that armor again, instead of letting it sit on the shelf. Same thing with something (a prop or otherwise) very obviously tied to a character. I think the whole point about LARPing is the emotional ties you get by interacting with an actual person. Anyone can play a video game.

I don't in any way think the GM's had anything to do with the PVP of last event. It was character stupidity. If anything, the GM's tried to help the good guys, but they just kept blundering. I just don't want people to even start discussing PVP. Hell... I'm sorry I even mentioned it, because I get jumped on.

My point was about how to deal with the last event, and apathy about character deaths.

Blue hell, I’ve been avoiding this…

As the first of the “West Side” players, I think I’ve been in an interesting position to watch the evolution of this game. Since we’ve strayed from the strict topic of reincarnation, here are a few of the things I’ve observed over the years.

-There is a very vocal minority that is active on these forums. Specifically where the rules are concerned, but Reid and Nelkie tend to dominate conversations and have the most to say. We don’t always agree on the rules, and so their energetic activism might bother me if I didn’t know them. Our specific vision of the game may differ, but I consider both of them friends and believe in their good intentions. That said, I don’t think many of the people now involved in the game really know each other. I’ve been around the east-siders for longer than any west-sider and have known most of the west-siders forever, so I’m very comfortable in saying that there are no bad people in Final Haven. Even good people can have bad habits, sure, but we’re all just trying to enjoy a game we love. That’s easy to say, but not easy to believe when you don’t really know the person behind the posts that piss you off.

-There is a geographic and social division in the player base. You have two different longstanding groups (East and West) with two different median ages and two different storytelling styles meeting in the same game. If this doesn’t cause enough difficulty, you also now have two games, with each one being run by members on opposite sides of the division. I have said since the beginning that the split off came too early, but I have always kept my commentary low because the WH GM’s are dear friends of mine. I know they wanted to branch out on their own, and I wanted them to succeed. WH is done by West side folks in a West side style that is predictably appealing to West side players. Damn near all of us on the West side can claim the same gaming lineage, and so it’s no wonder that some players are having more fun at WH. Toss in the end of last season, some general negativity, and the fact the FH has to bridge the divide and you’ll find a lot of what is going on behind the scenes. The simple point is people now have three games to choose from when they’re planning their LARP calendar, and they all happen simultaneously. Even if they don’t happen on the same weekend, that’s competition. The old-school folks who are vested in CARPS prioritize it, while many of the new people seem to have WH as their game of choice. It feels like only a few of us are truly rooted in FH, and we’re being slowly torn apart. I know that I’ve defended FH so often that people are tired of hearing me say “Look, you don’t know them like I do, things will be good.” Instead of one strong game we have three weak ones, and I don’t know how to fix that.

-Getting back in the saddle is hard. Financial investment aside, there can be a huge emotional investment in a character. Now, I’m not talking about crying because you lost your character, but I’m talking about being deeply connected to his or her story. If you had asked me (and a couple of people did) what my plans were after the end of last season, I would have told you that my LARPing career, quite possibly my gaming career, was very likely over. As I walked down the road on my way back to the Inn, I felt a powerful feeling of completion. The story did not end in the way I had hoped for or expected, but it had ended with a finality that seemed concrete. I have endured tragedies and betrayals in my own life, and while the comprehensive annihilation of everything my character had fought for over the previous five years doesn’t hold a candle to the real-life hardships, it does have its similarities. More than anything, I felt like I was done. The story had been told, and to step into some echo of that story with a new character felt like sacrilege.

It wasn’t until weeks later I happened upon the thought that someone, somewhere, might try to bring Donovan back, and suddenly everything I felt that night came rushing back. I realized that even if the character returned, both he and I had likely changed. My desire to fight the good fight, my ability to “hero up” and be the good guy every event were nearly gone; and I shuddered at the thought of having to step back into those shoes. Much of Donovan’s strength was based on his idea that we would stand together against the Darkness and that so long as we did so, we could not fail. Even if we died, fighting valiantly for each other and for the Light was a worthy way to go. How could that belief, that desperate faith, be anything but shattered? If he was brought back, what sort of man would he be after having experienced that?

It was in asking myself those surprisingly painful questions that I began to think. As much as I emotionally wanted to shy away from actually answering those questions, my curiosity couldn’t help itself. In considering Donovan’s possibilities I started considering other ideas and roleplaying concepts. As the days passed I found myself thinking more and more about playing again, and soon enough I was getting excited about the game. Of course, it was just about then that much of the negativity started creeping in around the LARP scene, so I found myself defending FH to people who had their own concerns and feelings about the game. I defended FH because I didn’t want all the work the GM’ put into the game to be in vain, I defended FH because I didn’t want to see my friends, both old and new, split by tensions and animosities that are as needless as they are tertiary. Most of all, I defended FH because I want to play with my friends.

So I say to hell with the rules disagreements. I say to hell with the divisions, the hurt feelings, the economic system we never even got a response on, the shadow of the past and the uncertainty of the future. I can’t promise to “hero up” like I once did, but I’m back in the goddamn saddle. If we all want to make the best of things, the best of things is exactly what we’ll get.

Yee-muthafuckin’-ha. Let’s ride.

I’ll see you at the event.
-Taki

That's what I thnk as well, Taki. Thanks for putting it so well. Hell, I'm hoping the hardship of starting from scratch will force us to work together like never before. I think the complacency of Haven's success was the #1 leading cause of player/group factionalization. I really hope the move to a frontier nation, and the continuing threat of the elves, forces us to either pony-up and work together....... or simply go through the last event all over again.

The only sorrow I feel over the last event is that I came into the game so late and couldn't play Durgan more with the IG characters he made friends with. Even if I play Daine exactly the same as Durgan, I could never replicate that. Although at the same time, this year is very much what I longed for- just as a different man with different players in the story.

I look foward to a new start. A chance to do it right. A chance for new and different beginings. It should be very interesting to see how things shake out and who will be incharge, how groups will be formed, and how the new town will look. It's a chance for new people to be in charge, different blood to be introduced, it is time to leave the stagnation behind and move foward to something very dynamic and fun.

I said I'd stay out, but I don't want the brave people who decided to actually post their opinions on this matter, on either side feel that I'm backing down, properly chastised. I really wish we'd have more people speak up, except I feel that as the thread goes on, we have people trying to play diplomat and cool things down, which solves ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. I want it out. I want every damn thing out.

GM_Chris wrote:I really wish people would talk to us instead of just talk in back rooms about how they perceive the GM's at Final Haven.

WayneO42 wrote: I have noticed a lot of negative posts lately. I have said this a million times but maybe I need to say it again. If the game is no longer fun for you, dont play.

There are more examples that discourage the PCs from speaking their minds. I'm not going to waste my time looking for them, but they are there. It's the : If you don't have anything good to say, don't say anything at all vibe.

GM_Chris wrote:You as a character need to decide if you really believe what I say or simply want to be left alone, but I assure you that if you leave the elves unchecked there won't be a Caldonia to go back to. Yes that was some creative plagiarism, but true in all respects.

How I read this: "If you decide to leave the past alone and move on, we will punish you for it." Chris, you have REPEATEDLY stated that you plan on punishing the PCs (Ala Kicking them while they are down) because they lost FH. You are going to punish NEW CHARCTERS (Ala the players). You have stated that Caledonia is a hole and the PCs will have a super hard time of it there. Oh boy, I'm looking forward to that!

The GM staff in general has stated that the world is in ruins and that there are only a few small places worth having...except the place Roderick's huge, well-supplied and well trained army came from...oh yeah and the elven army...and...

Yeah.

Most of the PCs who were at that event are dead. Most of the new characters are NOT from FH and really have NO stock in taking it back. Face that and move on. Why the HELL would people who didn't even KNOW the PCs who died WANT TO HONOR THEIR DEATHS?!?

Look at these DAMN posts for pete's sake!?! People are NOT HAPPY. They are NOT HAPPY about the continuing changes to death, they are NOT HAPPY about the tone of the game or where it COULD be going, based on GM output. I think the overall unhappyness has VERY little to do with the fact that there is more than one chapter. Maybe people have a choice, but I fail to how that does anything except raise the bar. How is that a BAD THING? I've held on at FH because the people I enjoy playing with have asked me to and make it fun for me. My interactions with most FH NPCs have been exceptionally enjoyable as well.

"We wanted to make healers feel more special." In any case, you created an artificial solution. Hey! We can make the game more deadly AND make the healer feel more special, yay! Tens of other solutions there, easier ones, less game-altering ones. I've already stated a few.

Reid. You actually take the time to READ people's posts before you make an argument. I've already said that we may be on opposite sides of the spectrum as far as what we want out of the game goes, but I generally agree with most of your suggestions and clarifications. Now, the things we DISAGREE on are huge, but that doesn't mean I don't want you to say them.

Vaun wrote: You are a symptom of a much larger problem. So are PC's who don't speak up and let GM's know how they feel, myself no less than any other. I've been stewing for months, avoiding this forum for JUST that reason.

Vaun wrote: Communication in any dynamic is essential, and I'm trying to do that for those who just don't have their own voice right now. I'm willing to be the 'bad guy' and say what they've been saying, because I DO love FH, and I want it to be wonderful again.

Amen. And I feel the same way and am told "You don't have to speak up for other people, they'll do it themselves, otherwise it's not important to them." Bullshit. This whole post is proof of that. Of how far you have to push before people actually speak up. By the time it may be too late. Now, if there are two people who feel the same way, there are more. You can't make everyone happy. I just have to find out if I'm in the minority as to what I want out of the game. If that's the case, then I'm the problem. I'm seeing that's NOT necessarily true. I want to love the game. I've been trying HARD to make excuses for myself on why to give it yet another shot over the last few events and those ahead. I want to feel excited and love it, the way I did when I first started. If I didn't give a shit, I would have let it all go and walked away without saying a damn thing. We're here and we're bitching because we (imagine that) actually care and might actually be able to get through. Otherwise we wouldn't waste our breaths.

I don't care about PvP, except that it should exist. I don't however feel that dying and permadeath should be more easily accomplished because otherwise it "robs from X's victory." On the contrary, in a fantasy world, it should take extra effort to make sure someone doesn't come back. You should have more of an incentive to solve a problem in another way (Or make sure no one finds the body), because they could come back and then screw you. It should NEVER be as easy as "Oh, I'll just kill them." I think THAT is most people's complaint.

Korrigan Drochlann wrote:I know that I’ve defended FH so often that people are tired of hearing me say “Look, you don’t know them like I do, things will be good.”

I think at this point, the problem is that you've been saying it for too long and it HASN'T gotten better. The problem is that on a personal level, I love the FH staff so I've had a hard time being more critical and I'm sure that's the case with other players as well. That reasoning does NOT work on new people.

Korrigan Drochlann wrote: Instead of one strong game we have three weak ones, and I don’t know how to fix that.

Bad or good, I feel that we have a very strong playerbase at WH that has only been growing. Maybe that is because the "old guard" as it were, is stepping down and you have the "new generation" coming up behind. I'm sorry if it's not happening at FH, because Travis and myself can attest to the fact that we WANT to PLAY there. If people are having an EASY time picking one game over the other (Which seems to be happening), then I don't see that as an issue with having "three weak games." If people are having a HARD time deciding between games, that's when you are balanced in agree-ability and enjoyment. I was waiting for the "WH" is the problem discussion to come up, but it's not "my" game either, so I'll leave those arguments to the boys.

I'm not pulling out the favoritism card, but we've already has issues with certain mechanics that weren't supposed to cross the line and did. I have heard straight out of Chris' mouth that they "need to keep Taki happy" because he is influential and brings people to the game.

I'm in favor of all hidden disciplines to be available to everyone, at least after a said amount of time. In fact, let's throw them all out in the open and tell people they only have majority over them for a set amount of events, then let everyone pick from them, if they wish. If there is a reason why people would choose a hidden discipline over an existing one, it's broken and needs to be fixed. There is one of my constantly stated concerns out in the open.

Korrigan Drochlann wrote: So I say to hell with the rules disagreements. I say to hell with the divisions, the hurt feelings, the economic system we never even got a response on, the shadow of the past and the uncertainty of the future. I can’t promise to “hero up” like I once did, but I’m back in the goddamn saddle. If we all want to make the best of things, the best of things is exactly what we’ll get.

I understand you are trying to play the middle ground here, fine. I'm used to hearing you say them and I appreciate the effort. But at the end of the day, it doesn't solve anything. The disagreements are still there, the rules are still there and the bad feelings are still there. I can't afford to "make the best of things" in a game where it's at LEAST a $60-$80 weekend between admission, food and gas where what most people what (or at least the perception of what most people want) conflict that strongly with what I want. I'm willing to walk away as long as I am in the minority.

Vaun wrote:Because, frankly, we all have enough sorrow and hardship in our real lives. Most of us will be damned before we pay for it in our fantasy lives.

It's escapism. It's a fantasy world. I'm tired of arguing against the "Hardcore" and "Realism." It's like beating on a brick wall. I've continued to play at FH in an effort to keep perspective between running a game and playing a game. And out of desperate hope. Fantasy should = Fantasy.

I feel like I've already had the door slammed in my face. You're right. It's not my game and it's not my world. I'm not a part of it. Now I actually FEEL that way. If you still don't understand how much enjoyment I USED to get out of playing, I'm actually in tears right now because I am THAT upset.

I have until May to calm down and see if I can give this one more shot. Until then, if someone wants to talk to me, PM me, call me, find in person or whatever. I'm out.

Personally, I just want to crow about successfully casting the longest, crappiest version of reincarnation on Durgan....ever.

It took five months, bumped me back to 1st level, made me hate elves, and poked my damned eye out.

Stupid empaths, don't even have to be one to cast reincarnation..........

LOL

Just a couple comments

1. The PC's on a whole chose to contuine on with the current story line instead of restarting fresh with everyone starting out new.
2. FH has the best resource base around. That is one of the reasons the elf's wanted
3. If the PC's want to have alot of resources again, than they will have to take back FH. This could be a great and wonderful PC driven plot.
4. The story line is driven by the PC's actions. So if the PC's want to sit in Caldeona being defeated they can, or they can work togther to win back the promised land of richs and plenty. It's the PC's choice.

It will be up to the PC's. We will find out what the PC's on whole want to do, sit back and be defeated, or rise to the challenge and win their land back.

Do we have option 5 of building a better Caldonia?

That's the one I'm interested in too.

As I see it, "Killin' Elves from Sylvandar" can be a viable side-plot to nearly any of the above options. Dare I say ALL of the above options.

I could go on an extremely long rant and there is a large part of me that wants to go on an extremely long rant, but quite frankly life is too short so I will simply adress one of concerns that Heidi and Christin have here. Now, I have made this post before but I have not been heard. Chris has made this post but has not been heard. Wayne has made this post but has not been heard. I am going to try something different. I am going to use all caps.

(clears throat)

THE GAME WILL BE NO MORE DEADLY THAN IT WAS BEFORE! I DON'T KNOW KNOW HOW MANY DIFFERENT WAYS I CAN SAY IT. PEOPLE ARE BITCHING AT AN EXTRAORDINARILLY HIGH LEVEL OVER THE INACTION OF A RULE THAT THEY HAVE NOT EVEN SEEN PLAYED OUT. IT IS THE MOST RIDICULOUS THING. IT'S LIKE BITCHING ABOUT ORANGE SODA WITHOUT EVER TASTING IT.

(clears throat again)

Now I am going to repeat something about Chris that I have said countless times before. Again, no one has heard me so I will try the caps approach.

(clears throat)

CHRIS IS MORE ON THE SIDE OF THE PLAYERS THAN ANY OTHER GM IN THE GAME. HE WANTS TO SEE YOU SUCCEED MORE THAN ANY OTHER GM IN THE GAME. HE IS MORE CONSCIOUS ABOUT SCREWING THE PLAYERS THAN ANY OTHER GM IN THE GAME. NO MATTER WHAT HE WRITES, NO MATTER WHAT HE SAYS, IF IT IS SOUNDING LIKE HE IS NEGATIVE ON THE PLAYERS OR IF IT SOUNDS LIKE HE IS TRYING TO SCREW THE PLAYERS, THEN HE IS BEING MISUNDERSTOOD.

(clears throat)

Now for the things I will never address again:

I will no longer address how we showed favortism to Vince by giving all of the other players magic items that they in turn handed over to Vince.

I will no longer address how we showed favortism to Vince by constantly giving the players a heads up about his evilness or by sending in plots intentionally meant to stop him from killing everyone.

I will no longer address how we showed favortism to Vince by allowing him to destroy the town with their own ignorance, with their own weapons.

I will no longer address how we showed favortism to Taki by allowing him to claim a building for the inn that allows him no mechanical advantage whatsoever while another group builds themselves a keep with resources that we allowed them to transfer from FH to WH, despite the apparent conflict of interest that that seemed to generate.

I will no longer address how we showed favortism to Taki for giving him a hidden discipline that he could teach to twelve other players in the game, while ALLOWING EVERY OTHER PLAYER WHO REQUESTED A SPECIAL DISCIPLINE TO HAVE ONE AS WELL

I will no longer address favortism in general to any player who conveniently forgets all of the things that they have been given (which is darn close to all of you)

I will no longer address any of these things because quite frankly life is too short. This fact has hit home for me recently. I play Final Haven to have fun. I am truly sorry that some of you are not having fun. I take responsibility for that, and I do want people to speak up, even if this rant suggests otherwise. But when you do speak up, it would be nice if the comments were respectful, and if the comments reflected our attempts to rectify your concerns. If you say, for example, that the new rules make the game more deadly, and we respond with, No it will not, we will adjust things on our side, and you respond with the new rules make the game to deadly and we say no, we'll adjust on our side, and you say the new rules make the game too deadly and we say we'll adjust and you say the f*cking rules make the stupid, no fun freakin blasted game no fun (despite having no effect on the fun of the other chapter--I guess you plan on adjusting on your end?), you might begin to see why we start getting defensive and irritable.

And in case there is any confusion, I am not mad at anyone, I'm really not. I'm just tired of saying the same things. Talk to me after the first event if everyone dies...

I really just don't know how to respond. Of course, when the general gist is that people feel that you are ruining their game isn't really anything you can say.

Ultimately, the things I've had any input on changing aren't to screw people at all. They are quite the opposite for both PCs and GMs alike. If this were a video game (NS13 anyone), we'd all bitch up a storm then trust that they had our best interests at heart or leave. Unfortunately, we don't have that large of a player base.

For the healing change, all I can say is, if a chapter thinks it's too rough, there are many ways to alter it. Allow deeper negatives healed by any means. Have surgery heal more life. Have chips count for more life per chip. It was designed to allow for a multitude of house rules without changing the basic concept. Changing chapters means only knowing the few house rule adjustments.