Arcanes and Armor

[GM_Chris]

LOL you can wear light armor for sure.

Don't worry we are just chatting nothing to see here!

[gingerswenson]

LOL you can wear light armor for sure.

Don't worry we are just chatting nothing to see here!

Ok... Thats a load off.

[Kalphoenix]

Yes, we tend to rant here and fly off into the wild blue yonder with insane and bitchy statements that are meant to do nothing but fan the fires more. If you are new, you probably shouldn't take it personally In fact, I try REALLY hard not to take anything said here personally, otherwise I wouldn't be playing. :p

GMs tend to err on the side of the players. I can't say this is cheating, the game is supposed to be about the PCs, at it's heart and we do the same at WH. I also didn't accuse ANY GMs of cheating, I'm just saying that its not an authentic test of whether a discipline is balanced or not.

When you have a large number of npcs of a specific type at your disposal and they (understandably) can't follow the normal rules that PCs are restricted to because of a lack of props and body physreps, you aren't getting an accurate test. If you want an accurate test, have a PC test it.

Now, Chris, I'm sure it didn't mean to come out that way, but you pretty much said you were going to blast away the PCs to prove your point. It doesn't prove anything.

[GM_Chris]

Oh believe me I feel I am right on the no armor thing, but you are not the only one to dissagree with me here so I am welcome to test it out.

I do not want the armor to run around and fight. I want the armor for the extra soak for when I am standing in one place and am a huge target.

This way my arcanes can hide behind shields wear a bunch of armor and cast spells. If they are hit sure the spell is disrupted, but at least I still have my arcane. That is all I want. I may not even go full warrior. Might go men at arms/arcane/warrior or something like that.

[GM_Chris]

I realize I never clarified something, and it was the something that made me and Heidi a tad grumpy. Really I was not all that upset, and I do not believe Heidi was all that upset, just more a little put off. I was laughing about my post after I made it, and I have spoke to Heidi on the phone the other day so I do not want observers getting all wierd. Oh and Roy, I never even read your post before I posted mine soooo it had nothing to do with what you said.

Anyways I made a comment about how I would apparenlty make a PC's life hell for taking advantage of a loophole. A loophole which is apparenlty 3 years old.

As my brother already clarified I was by no means talking about people who honestly did not know it was an oversite. I am talking about the non roleplaying power gammer max min person who sees an opportunity to take advantage of the loophole NOW that it has been brought up.

So do I see that as a "sane" statement? Absolutely. I do not like nor enjoy people taking advantage of mistakes.


Now on the other hand if there are people who feel it is not a mistake I am open to play test it at this event. I am open to give my Elven arcanes 13 more soak than they would normally have with a shield, to see if it really makes all that much of a difference. It makes no difference to me if they get the 13 soak or not, but since no arcane to my knowldge plays with the 13 soak, probably due to the fact that it was originally in the book as no armor, I cannot have a discussion in the offseason about making arcane beefier without some sort of a play test. Yes it would make them better since it allows them to use more armor than most people remember them being able to use.

For example, sage. I have a hard time having a discussion that the sage is not on par with the other disciplines when I am being told by sages that they are extreamly powerful. I have a hard time believing meditate is under powered when I have monks telling me they feel invincible. I have a hard time believing arcane is horrible when I have a good amount of arcanes in the game. This is why you are getting so much resistance to your ideas. It is not that I do not think you may have valid points. My problem is that I have other people who I also think have valid points dissagreeing with you. Whom am I to believe?

[Donovan Thynedar]

Let me see if I can navigate this...

I think the problem here is one of perspective. Here are a few points that may be adding to the confusion and tension:

-The Metaphysics of the game don't appear to list a reason why an Arcane can't cast in armor. It's a roleplaying standard, to be sure, but not necesarily intuitive for someone who has not table-topped.

-Chris has always been open to rule suggestions and possibilities. I honestly think he wants to provide the best experience possible for the players and his fellow gamemasters. He usually will give someone who feels strongly about a rule or mechanic the chance to do it his or her way, even if he disagrees with them. He will also then prove his counter-point by illustrating an abuse of "his or her way" where the PC's are on the receiving end of whatever mechanic he disagrees with.

Now I'm not Chris, but I think he does this so that the PC's think about how a rule could be used to their disadvantage. In the case of cheesy powergamers, this is usually enough to get them to drop the issue. Where the problem seems to arise is when the person in question is not trying to powergame at all. In those cases I think some people feel Chris comes off as domineering and perceive his counter-point as a threat. They then feel bullied into backing down, and the whole exchange leaves a bad taste in everyone's mouth. Combined with Chris's infamous "Mwah-ha-ha" moments and sense of humor, some people may be getting the wrong impression.

Now Chris, A playtest for the Armor/Arcane issue is certainly a good idea, but when you state "I cannot have a discussion in the offseason about making arcane beefier without some sort of a play test." some people could take that as you saying "If you want to discuss this during the off-season, you're going to have to deal with all of my NPC arcanes getting tougher this event." Can you see how some people might see that as threatening, and thereafter feel uncomfortable discussing the rules with you?

-There is more than one issue being discussed here. The point of Arcanes in armor would not be nearly so touchy if the PC's weren't about to face off against a bunch of them.

-The real hot button issue here may be that some PC's feel like the OOG arrangement of a fight is preventing them from doing what their characters would do IG. Again, not such a big deal most days, but with the build up for this event everyone is on edge.

-I can't not mention this, because it messes with my whole gameplay experience. IF rules discussions on this board create significant spontaneous IG changes, PLEASE don't ever let me know about it. I could handle the idea that the Elven Arcanists have always been trained as combatants IG. Some story reason why they do or do not wear armor could be interesting. What I could not handle would be a bunch of Elven Arcanes suddenly slapping armor on over their robes for no reason other than we had a mechanical disagreement. Maybe I'm alone, but I hate it when the story is forced around a mechanic.

Those are just a few points that I can see at play here. Here are some of my own suggestions for everybody.

-Remember that there are always going to be feelings at stake. People have a lot invested in this game, this world, and their characters. This may be just a hobby and we all play it off like we're bulletproof, but people do get let down, hurt, stressed, and pissed off about this game and on these forums.

-Remember that we're all friends. I know this seems pretty simple and that everyone will say "duh" about it, but I do think people lose sight of it from time to time. A lot of times we pay lip service to the idea just long enough to catch our breath and then go back to presuming that people have bad intentions.

Bleh, I'm spent. Let's just keep the drama in game.

[General Maximus]

First, for this event, can arcanes wear heavy armor or not? Since the armor restriction is not in the book, I'm assuming they can. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I pesonaly believe some of the spells the arcane disapline can use are broken. The Arcane does not need to have another benifit of heavy armor.

A PC can cast a 45 fire and than pull out a sword and swing 2 behind a shield and in heavy armor. You get a full warrior and the nastyness of the arcane all roled into one. It is to powerful and deadly.

Eric and I are masters on min and maxing and finding breaks in the game. Letting arcane wear heavy armor is a break.

Imanagine 5 arcane warriors casting river of stone at there enemy and mopping up the left overs as full path warriors with shield and heavy armor. It is just nasty. The armor limitation balances that out.

[GM_Chris]

Well Takki that was an excellent sum up.

The question is: Should Arcanes wear armor?

Here again I have 2 self confessed power gamers telling me no. As a test, yes maybe to scare people a little, I suggest putting my arcanes into heavy armor. If it is not a broken mechanic then it should not matter if I give them 13 more soak.

Mechanics are put into place so that you do not have these HUGE peaks of maxness craziness.

Sure the RP'er who decides he is going to fail at half the spells tehy cast, limp around on a bad leg, and purposefully not be good at sword play would see no issue with mages in armor, but that does not account for the pwoer gamer min maxer who uses the powers to the max.

It is like the entier sage discussion. Sure if all you do as a sage is walk around in no armor and utilize 1 skill out of the entire list of skills you would see a HUGE issue with the sage. On the other hand, if you walk around in full plate with a shield utilizing all of the sage's skills you would find them very powerful.

Oh and Takki there is always a RP reason for everything. I would not just slap armor on and not give you some type of cool story to go along with it.

As for IG reasons for no armor. I can come up with a bunch. Do the people in game know about metal in phantara? or the dexterity neeed to cast spells and why it is important for the flow of essence within something? Which items have more magic than others?

[NewGuy]

The GMs could have a single arcane waiting for us in a field the escort us to on a plot. This empath was casting firestorm, but just wasn't throwing at the time. As soon as we show up (s)he throws their entire stock of spell packets and then does the field damage. Toasty

[Kalphoenix]

You know what?

I really DON'T care if arcanes can wear heavy or not. If it's an oversight, make an announcement AT THE GAME where everyone will hear it and give the people (I don't think there are any) who didn't know any better because it wasn't in the book a chance to re-write that aspect or their character, make adjustments or whatever.

I've also never played an arcane, so I really can't say if they are unbalanced one way or the other. My only reason for saying it needs help is the fact that Alchemy (Which I HAVE played) needs some more checks and balances to make both of them viable. I have already made my issues with Alchemy known that I am told are going to be looked after in the off-season so I don't feel I need to restate or restart that discussion here.

So in case you missed that: <PLEASE DO NOT BRING UP MORE DISCUSSION OF ALCHEMY HERE> This thread is convoluted enough without adding that biscuit.

My contention is with the fact that it turned into an instant "That's an exploit!" cry and "Anyone who does this is exploiting!" when it's been in the rulebook that way for at least three years and is NOT general knowledge. It's not cheating or an exploit when it's been missing from print for who knows how long. I'm sorry it's been looked over that long, but that doesn't make it any player's fault.

For example, I know we don't have clerics (Which, I might add, is a traditional fantasy standby, just as mages not wearing heavy armor is), but in theory, a character could create a Healer/Arcane and have a playstyle something like a traditional cleric (heals and spells) in the game and wear medium armor, based on the rules as they appear in the book. I wouldn't consider a player who made a character like that a cheater. They are following the rules as they appear in the book.

When I originally noticed that Arcanes did not have an armour penalty, I figured it was based on the ritual and asking around, that is what I was told. I didn't think twice about it, I just figured it left the door open for different character builds.

Now, I AM a tabletop gamer and I also realize that generally mages do not wear heavy armor when they are casting spells, so I thought that was strange. But I also noticed the setting has empaths, which are a lot more the traditional damage-dealing ranged "mages" who ARE restricted to light armor, so I figured that was more the caster-type. Now, that being said, we're not playing D&D, we're playing Final Haven and not everything is the same. I found out that a lot of traditional fantasy staples are not part of this setting. I don't consider that necessarily a bad thing, but that doesn't make ANYTHING common knowledge.

[Kalphoenix]

As a test, yes maybe to scare people a little, I suggest putting my arcanes into heavy armor. If it is not a broken mechanic then it should not matter if I give them 13 more soak.

It does matter, because this is going to be an event with a ton more Arcanes than normal. It's an army. The ratio of full-discipline Arcanes in the game from a PC and probably even NPC perspective is usually pretty low, so throwing one or two Arcanes at the PCs is much different than 10 or more.

And you aren't talking about scaring people, you are talking about killing their characters just to make a mechanics point.

[cole45]

I understand why arcanes would be limited by armor.It's a skill blanace issue. DPS vs Tanking. That's is fine.

However, as far as these things go, I have said this before. If it's not in the book, and it's not in the RULE UPDATE section of the forum. It's NOT CANNON. It is a field call.

Why do I say this? Because I've been burned by it several times. We need a FORMAL ERRATA PROCESS. Only you all can POST there.

[GM_Chris]

COLE! I was wondering when you would post.

Anyways if it makes everyone happy let me back down from my position. I certainly do not care enough to care this much.

So for the record.

1) Wear what you want it is not in the rule book. I back down from my position of me being angry with people who DO look at the forums and are trying to cheat BECAUSE as it was said it is not cheating. What is good for 1 is good for all so please feel free to wear what you want and I promise not to care in the least.

2) I promise not to bring in 10 arcanes with full plate armor, though I may bring 1 in. This is NOT to kill a bunch of PC's. As I have stated in my little Rant I do not enjoy killing PC's to make a point. I was never intending to even do such a thing. So it is not worth further arguing over.

3) I am not even going to discuss this in the off season. Seriously, I do not care enough to do so because it is a minor point. Infact, I have seiously considered removing all armor restrictions. Who am I to tell a rogue they cannot wear full plate. Who am I to tell an Empath they cannot do the same. I am really leaning toward Rp your character how ever you want.

So incase you missed it because I was never upset. Not even when I said I would be angry. I mean seriously Reid understood that I was speaking almost entirely to him and and Aaron they even joked about not looking at this thread.

Aron to answer your question. Arthos, if he is arcane CAN wear what ever armor you would like for this event or any future events.

Oh and why future? Because I will not hinder a person who bought or made a bunch of armor to wear as their arcane and then have a rule tell them to not wear it. No, so wear what you want and all be happy.

[cole45]

Yah. I was just waiting for the flames to clear. hehehe.

[GM_Chris]

Oh there were never that many flames. Mike called me laughing about my post since I removed his earlier. He was like "And my post was infamatory" and I was like "Hey" and we laughed.