A Question about Armor

[dier_cire]

I think most folks don't have time to question calls and instead are just just calculating what they've taken as quickly as they can.

hehe, you obviously not met Nelkie or I. Honestly, I'm usually just being a meatshield so my whole focus is on what I'm taking so it's easy to catch the oddball call.

Back on topic, so the coolness factor which has been the +1 life on costume may need to be looked at, is this what it's sounding like?

[Peace420]

Layering should give you a bonus as it increases every criteria anyone has mentioned here, weight, resticts movement, and certainly has historical precedence and factual measurables that clearly show that leather over padded, leather over chain, chain over padded, or even leather over weaved bamboo are much more effective. I was watching the history channel just this weekend and they had a weaved bamboo shield covered in a thin hardened leather that was about 4.5 feet tall and about 3.25 feet wide at it's widest and was tapered in the center(weapon weilding). It actualy did a better job of stopping arrows and piercing weapons than a steel shield of normal thickness for that size. Why? because of a little thing called surface tension. It takes alot more energy to break through the outside of something than to continue to move through it. Every layer increases the # of times that the object must puncture the outermost molecules. It works the same for bashing weapons, it would take more and more energy to bend the layers, hence the can't fold a normal sheet of paper more than 8 times thing.

Why wouldn't leather over leather or chain over chain give a bonus too? It also fufills every one of the criteria that have been mentioned in this thread as to what makes a difference in armor categories.

Coolness factor bonuses are a little too subjective IMO, that can come down to preference in style. The 1 exception I could see to that would be wearing a full suit of plate, which I could see giving a person 1 bonus armor pt. I don't think having props should give you a bonus, it could get really ridiculous and that would be purely subjective as to what quanity and quality gives you a bonus.

For chain leave it as is both medium and heavy. The type that only goes to the waist, has no sleeves or the sleevelets is med no matter what it's made of. The kind that covers the crotch and has long sleeves or the kind that has 3 layers of rings is heavy. If you make some 1 inch diameter rings with no backing at all and then try and rules lawyer your way into med you are breaking the "no cheese" rule and should get slapped for stupidity.

If the GM looks at your armor and has any question about it they can call over 2 other GM's and make a final ruling or give you a field ruling and tell you that you need to get an official ruling when 3 GMs are together.

We already have the systems in place to cover all those scenarios and concerns about getting hosed or whatever so use them. If the person cotinues to whine about their armor and such after 3 GM's rule on it then would anyone really care if they continued to complain about it?

Edit: The phys rep bonus thing made me think of the scene in Office Space where the manager and whatsherface are having the minimum flair conversation.

[Slisk]

I certainly don’t feel cheated by ‘easier’ armor matching – or even surpassing – my armor soak. There’s a look and concept I’m going for, and that just happens to involve platemail. Heck, due to armor restrictions in the skill sets I have, that platemail is mostly medium armor (and I need to send a PM to you so I can understand why that restriction is there). If the look you’re going for happens to grant more soak than mine – no problem. A rule system can’t realistically accommodate everyone’s armor scheme. Shifted Lands granted armor points to a character on an individual basis based solely on appearance, but such an arbitrary system must generate a LOT of ill will. 60 points, nearly half my armor total, came from my helmet because the GM who was judging me wanted to encourage helmet-wearing. Someone who had been granted, say, 10 points for his helmet by another GM who didn’t care if people wore helmets or not (or even by the same GM after helmets became commonplace) would have undoubtedly felt cheated.

What’s important to me is that people make their character look the way they feel their character should be represented to others. It’s also important that the game rules consistent and easy to follow. Combining the two means a lot of very different armor designs falling into very few categories. That be fine by me.

[dier_cire]

the reason you remove chain over chain and leathe over leather has nothing to do with physics. It's due having to deal with where do you draw the line between single armor layered on itslef on two armors layered on top. If I made a single suit of double layered leather is it medium or heavy?

As for chain, you're saying that higher coverage gets a category bonus in addition to more coverage areas? I thought that's what we had multiple coverage areas for...

[Todd]

Its getting WAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYY too complicated. (unecessarily I might add)

[Peace420]

I was actually just trying to make it simple... 2 layers would up the class and a judgement call would be made by the GM as to whether your chain or leather is med or heavy.

I don't see a real reason outside of artificial reasons for not allowing stacking same armor types in locations. If you had hardened thick leather over chain it's somehow different than hardened leather over hardened leather? Why do you need to make an artificial "can't do this for the sake of it" rule?

Judgement calls that the GM isn't 100% sure on get the 3 GM stamp. You use the systems in place already without creating some hard fast rule thats inflexible and you satisfy the concern of bias or opinion and such. How much simpler can it be really. I mean you could go the "bam...ruling" route but that as we know causes all kinds of crap.

[GM_Chris]

Sujectivity is minimized when you have a committee

[dier_cire]

Subjectivity is eliminated by good, clear rules.

My reasoning for the two types is eliminates the need for a commitee entirely. Why have any subjective "does this count?" when you don't need it by excluding something that is pretty unlikely to happen anyway. Has anyone tried to come in with two layers of chain or hardened leather?

Personally, I can't see two layers of either not looking cheesy anyway. (And I wouldn't classify weaved leather as two layers, it's still just one shirt)

[Torakhan]

Sujectivity is minimized when you have a committee

So is the ability to make a timely decision.

[GM_Chris]

There are alot of ways to have good rules.

One way is to have a detailed spec sheet that attempts to cover every situation to eliminate subjectivity. The other way to go is to train those who will be making the decisions by showing different examples and then explaining what the points given to those examples.

Both work

My thought is that a computer can do the spec sheet, but a human can make good decisons based on good training which is why we should just put an FAQ on the web with examples.

Still really confused why people dont comment on if that is a good idea.

[Malphus]

I think an arnor FAQ with examples is a good idea. Never a time when it was more needed than now.

[dier_cire]

Personally, I think it's uneeded. You don't need to list out a sheet with every possible combo to have a clear set of rules. I'm against the type of rule that ends up as 'the GMs will decide what you get'. It's a power trip waiting to happen. GMs shouldn't make rules.

I think an FAQ is a bit premature until the rules are a bit further along. Once there's a year where there's no core changes, then look into an FAQ.

[GM_Chris]

When was the last time we changed rules?

Also who said it is "what the gm's think" I said have training so we can get better consistancy

Infact no one complained about the armor rules until I posted an example where people differed on what the person should get.

[Torakhan]

When was the last time we changed rules?

Also who said it is "what the gm's think" I said have training so we can get better consistancy

Infact no one complained about the armor rules until I posted an example where people differed on what the person should get.

To answer your first question: What day is it?

As for the "no one complained" comment, to my understanding there have been some issues (in particular, cross-chapter armor rules/calls) where someone's armor looks cool and was given a bonus up into another catagory, but the GM/s (of the other chapter) doesn't agree that it deserves more just because it's fancier (note: not constructed any heavier, just embelished) and instead base the armor's stats on what's printed in the rules.

How do other LARPs with chapters handle these situations? Camarilla, NERO, etc. Does each "cross chapter" character go through an approval interview, going over each tag and piece of equipment to make sure it's the same standards? Or (like in the Camarilla) has each GM gone through a lengthy test and written exam to make sure that all of the GMs are making the same rule calls?

[cole45]

Art is right,

At winterhaven we had two players that one of the FH told them their armor was heavy. They had heavy tags and everything. We told them it was fake heavy, because it was leather. They spends alot of money and time on the armor and were extremely upset.

Training the GMs to make the choice is a bad plan. Humans make more mistakes. thats why the robot overlords try to replace them.

seriously, These players are great, and not trying to make trouble, but one of you (not naming names chris.) told them their armor was real heavy.