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As a player facing the option of losing almost 9 years of experience-bought skills between two characters.....wow.

I will already lose all my military and all my hard-enhanced holdings as Marcus, all of which has been spent to help the town. My current abilities of being a very superb healer (99% of which is just mechanical skills available to any player, 1% is a magic item I wouldn't mind if disappeared) would really put the nail in the coffin, as it gives me the tremendous enjoyment of the fruition of years of hard work enabling me to feel powerfully helpful- something I rarely enjoy as a muggle.

Now, Marcus being transported extremely far from Haven, being forced to work from scratch on a noble and good reputation in a place that knows him not, especially in the face of being separated -possibly even forever- from his beloved wife and child....that alone would be a seed for immense personal storytelling (oh, my dear god, could the well-known goody-two-shoes, in the face of all his abilities and vows to save innocent life, be driven towards the Dark Side for awhile out of grief?! ), but to restart immensely weakened, then I have to wonder why we even have high-level skills if players have to worry about being stripped of them after the years of events of in-game risk to their character to attain them?

A bit off-topic, but as for sitting around massing personal wealth and power- it's the same old argument people posed about gaining XP from playing both WH and FH with the same character (the counter argument being it was twice the risk) My god, I have volunteered for the risk of permanent death TWICE already in the what-6 (?) real-world years playing as Marcus- once with about 7 other pretty high-level characters, finally attaining my Master Path Specialty for the latter part of this season with:

-Maybe 12-16 (old system) levels from making props for both games.
-taking twice the risks of playing both Chapters, until by my own roleplaying I forced myself to stop playing Marcus at WH.
-Not one single NPC experience point.
-Never once paying real-world cash for the double dip at the start of the event.

That's really a horrible plan at amassing personal power, especially if that personal power is immediately spent in-game for other character's benefits.

If magic items are a perceived problem of attained power- fine. Transferring to a new setting strips us of them, and our wits alone must now save us. Half of Marcus' magic items are only there to keep him safe from in-game assassination attempts and shenanigans by terrorist characters; another one keeps other characters alive and does nothing for me, and one whose highest value to me is because it started out as a perfectly mundane item that is immensely and entirely back-story (it even has it's own!) tied to why Marcus is even a "hero" and not a NPC peasant, only after years gaining an ability requiring hero points to empower that has been replicated by at least one other player in another fashion in an easier way. I only care about it in the first aspect, as it has attained the "ever-present eyepatch/hairstyle/costume" personal status, and going without it - not to mention willingly giving it to other characters for safekeeping as a sign of the highest trust- has actually driven personal stories along.

I actually have loved Brennandale as a setting, as it really showed signs of being a setting unique to itself that has not even really been explored by most players. Some of us have even spent more than one Research request solely on the purposes of fleshing the area out as a unique place. Hell, the name alone has it's own in-game backstory created by players reacting to a situation, rather than being told it by NPC's!

I think most of this has been such an impact to me as I never even heard a rumor of it until one week before what could be my preeminent and most well-crafted character's final event ever depending on a popular vote. Glad I haven't made any big purchases for garb and equipment.

Guys stop bickering on a discussion that is very important to some of us, even if the post count is very low. (I am assuming my lack of a Facebook account is harming me on this).

Again, we need to stay on topic. We will be discussing forum behavior again at our con call this evening. I want to thank everyone from detracting us from what's important to have to talk about childish behavior.

CJ, your lack of facebook account hurts you in no way. Your voice has been heard and will be taken into account. We will make a decision at our concall tonight and inform everyone of the decision thereafter. The polls will then be shut down.

Thanks

Marcus wrote: (I am assuming my lack of a Facebook account is harming me on this).

yup agree with Mike, I don't do social media either. also you can always just PM mike but he obviously reads the forums

Sorry Mike, I meant that my lack of being on Facebook probably hurt me in not hearing about the issue earlier as there's probably (?) more discussion going on there than these forums, rather than anything about my voice being heard or not. Not a complaint about staff in any way

I have always been of the mindset that FH characters at high levels are only as powerful as the rest of the characters let them be. I basically worked most all of last year's events to have my Mass Heal go up from 1 to 2 and get a perk.

Personally, resetting our characters to level one would be really odd depending on the roleplaying situation, as if they retain all their memories, they would still have all the in-game clout of their personality, and it just takes time to get all their exact skills back?

Sometimes I get the feeling of a situation where some players think I should feel guilty about focusing on two characters fighting to survive over years and years of some pretty nasty shit rather than voluntarily restarting as a new character a bunch of times, just to get a couple of skills, but maybe I am reading into it too much.

Gotcha. The poll appeared here first but there is admittedly a bit more discussion on facebook. A new poll was created over there with more options but at last check, the one with the most votes was the equivalent of choice 1 here.

Now, that being said, in all seriousness if a shift to the new setting meant that there would be no chance of in-game return to Haven for any characters choosing to go onward...I would have to actually think stupidly hard about whether I would have to voluntarily and permanently retire a 6-year 40-something (new rule' levels) level character just to be faithful to his in-game personality (Marcus would likely not voluntarily abandon his wife and child. Now involuntarily would be another, epic, matter......), and continue on in a new setting as my other character Garritt (being the eternal Mad Max restless no-ties wanderer that he is, always helping, but never truly being at home where he is).

But it would be doubly harsh to willingly do the former and then have to set a backup character all the way back by something in the realm of 30 (new rulebook) levels. I just don't think there are enough immensely high level characters to penalize all the 1-2 season old ones that way. And half of them are probably crafters and healers, at that!

Option 1 would really be the same as playing a FH character over at Winter Haven, but this time, both chapters' characters would be meeting somewhere new and alien to both groups, which seems equally fair as neither are infringing on the others' "backyard" so neither groups are being forced to be homeless squatters who were forced to give up their hard earned security because of out of game issues.

I could see Markus and Kaylan battering whatever barrier prevented return with their hammers...all event.....every event...

The decision has been made to allow players and equipment to transfer completely with a full rewrite given if desired. For those wishing to retire, there will be a one time 50% retention of all levels/reward points (this was always planned as an option and never discussed as mandatory, just to clear that up). Thanks for all the feedback. We all appreciate it.

Sorry, my last post was confusing. All reward points will be retained whether you retire or not.

The simplicity of the two options in the poll here was why I couldn't put my vote down for one, but why I was able to put down votes for more than one option on Facebook.

Part of me is happy that (if my PC survives this season), I'll be able to continue my character with all of his high levels and his allies will keep all of their items as well.

However, the other part of me is a bit sad that players didn't also see this as an opportunity to start a brand new game, not tied to any other game, and allow new players and old to work their way up and see who could gain and build what. Instead the same power-players will have all of their wealth, powerful items, and so on, while new players may feel stifled and held back because the big-bad players get what they want and enemies swing 20-crush against everyone just because a few notable folks can take it like a champ.
When you start a new D&D game, you don't get to tell the DM "I was playing a 14th Level Warrior/Rogue in the last campaign that lasted three years, so I demand I get to play him in this one" because that's silly--it's a brand new game, with a brand new story that the DM wants to tell and they may be tired of the high-level campaigns and the drama they've built up over the last campaign.
Everyone plays their characters knowing that they may lose them next game if things go poorly. That's why investing so heavily in costuming (or paying for extra levels, etc.) for a single character (especially when you're on a budget) always seemed faulty to me--because the event you bought that custom sword for $450 with your character's oath and father's name on it, you might die with it. And at some point the story ends, and a new game is going to start up. Yes, 8, 10, 15 years of character-playing is a tough thing to give up, but sometimes it just has to happen, and if it's forced, I'd rather it be across the board so everyone starts at roughly the same level to begin with in the new story.

But the decision has been made. The same super-powerful, wealthy, ultra-armed characters will remain in the game with almost everything the last chronicle ended with, and those who have the ambition to create something new by "retiring" will be penalized for it by losing everything and taking a 50% cut in XP for their new character (though, I do get why this is seen as "necessary" because it keeps people from building cherry-picked builds from scratch at high levels, but it didn't stop the 100% re-write when rules changed either.) New players will be turned off by finding out that old PCs are so powerful and established that they will turn to other games that are newer (a fact that has kept some new attendance away anyways), and power-creep continues to effect every combat where NPCs have to machine-gun 4s just to give the geared-up front-liners something to feel good about and decimate most everyone else and leave those folks feeling frustrated that they can't stand up to even the basic bad guys because they don't have the magical items, not just advanced mechanics, to keep up.

What's best for me (keep my levels, my character, his gear, and his allies/friend with all of their stuff) probably isn't what's best for the game --a new game with a new story to tell that lets everyone start fairly equal, and that's why I couldn't simply place one vote in the poll.

completely completely completely agree Art, and could not have said it better.

the divide was getting bad and now it will only get worse, this is what happened at CARPS, you have a game with two classes. That is very difficult to build for (as this is not an MMO and you cannot assign multiple difficulties to the same content)
-do you design monsters and plots around the weaker players so they can have fun and compete? then all the vet players will stomp the plots and monsters into the ground and make new and weaker players feel useless.
-do you design around the vet players? then the new and weaker players get stomped into the ground and feel they cannot do anything.

I'm terribly sad to see that Final Haven is repeating the mistake of the 5 year jump all over again.

If your going to let Vet players continue with all there wealth, power, levels, etc. I see NO REASON to impose ANY kind of penalty on people wishing to start a new character.

simply give everyone full re writes, those that choose to keep their existing character (and I have no doubt there will be many now) will continue to retain all the power and influence they held before (sadly) while those actually wishing to start new stories in a new setting can do so AT LEAST without a penalty. (seriously why does this game always go out of its way to hurt people wanting to play new characters?!)

Thanks everyone for your passion and opinions as to this matter. Obviously whichever way we had gone, even if we had gone with one of the expanded options that were posted on facebook, there would have been people out there who thought we did the wrong thing. It's kind of the problem with having such a poll. Had we done all of this in private, the griping, while still there, would probably have been less pronounced. Not everyone shares your beliefs that the five year jump was a mistake or that the new setting was horrible and I know that there are some people who still have faith in us moving forward. In addition, not everyone who wanted to retain their characters are older, power hungry players. In fact, we have very few power hungry older characters. Most of our older players are in it for the story, for the continuation of their character's story that they have spent years developing and wanting to see what next is in store for them. All of them, either publicly or privately, have stated that if the magic items are a problem, then take them or fix them, hardly the opinion of a power hungry individual. Not all of the people that wanted to retain everything were older characters at all. Some of them had just started in the last year or two and didn't want to start over again. Many of them had bought levels with hard earned cash--resetting them seemed particularly harsh.

I have been asked over the past couple of months and especially over the past couple of weeks since the merger was announced as to why I was stepping down after next year. I will have been doing this for 15 years, which is a crazy long time in this "business" (which I use sarcastically because it was never a business for me though the perception still exists out there that it is). I have literally dumped thousands of dollars into running these events for my friends, renting at sites that we really couldn't afford simply because it made the game better. I value entertaining others, in making lives, if even for a short time, better by allowing people to forget about all of the crap that life throws at them. I value writing. If my life were different, I would have written many novels instead of just the two I wrote before my special needs daughter entered our lives. Writing a novel requires a kind of momentum that simply is impossible to achieve at this point in my life. Should I live long enough, I will probably get back to that passion, but Final Haven has allowed me write small stories, to fulfill for many years that need that I have had, and I'm grateful.

But I'm tired. A tremendous amount of work goes into running an event. I have three kids, one of whom takes up a lot of time without the usual rewards that go along with it. I have a full time job. I haven't been able to put as much into the game as I have in the past and that has shown in the product. The negativity of the player base has taken its toll. It's not the constructive criticism, that has never bothered me, but the less constructive kind that we get more and more of. I'm tired of making a decision and basically be called stupid for doing so, knowing that had I made the opposite decision someone else would have said the same thing. Somewhere along the line it stopped being about running events for my friends and started being about running events for strangers who think I'm doing this to make money (and treat me and my staff as such), which makes the losing thousands that much more difficult to stomach. It became about having to moderate arguments because people don't understand things like common courtesy or treating each other kindly. It became about not just running the events but having to do the bulk of the cleaning after or spend even more money to have that done for me because it was too much to ask for people to pitch in (no I'm not forgetting the wonderful handful of people who would help clean but that's just the thing--it should never have been just a few).

I have been involved in one larp or another for over 20 years. Never are decisions made lightly. They are based on discussion with many people and a crap ton of experience. Even so, we still make mistakes and sure, this could be one of them and if it turns out to be one, I'll own it, I always do. And who knows, next year with someone else in charge, maybe a different decision will be made and we can have a clean comparison. For now, though, this is the decision. It is the decision I would have made had there not been a poll, and it is the choice that the majority of people wanted. I at least feel it's the right one.

*Stands up*

*Begins clapping*

*Closes thread*

*Realizes can't close thread cuz not moderator*

*Sits back down*

*Shifts awkwardly*

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In all seriousness, when I saw this poll, I was very worried about what would happen in the discussions to come. Admittedly I joined the poll late, and I have yet to see the Facebook threads at this time, but I want to give a little bit of my own input.

First, I want to thank Mike for being so straightforward with us, as I, personally, believe it's quite difficult to make such passionate remarks when you're meant to be viewed as a neutral party, as all GMs strive to be. In the words of the great Albus Dumbledore, "It takes a great deal of courage to stand up to our enemies, but just as much to stand up to our friends." I've missed a lot of the going-ons of the forums, both on Facebook and on here, so Mike's statements might not be new ones. Regardless, I want to give credit where credit is due.

Now, considering what Mike just said, I believe that this poll happened because the GMs want to know what WE want, more than they want to make a decision without us. They care more about our happiness and well-being than their own sanity, but, naturally, that altruism must take its toll at some point. We're a highly varied group with strong opinions, and though I think this was a fairly level-headed discussion (again, I joined late and did not see the deleted posts), we have a tendency to use language inappropriate to the situation, language that more often than not causes divisiveness. Furthermore, we seem to forget that no matter where it is or when it happens in the world, there is simply no such thing as compromise without someone getting the short end of the stick; supposedly a good compromise leaves everyone unhappy. My point iis that it's time to close this discussion now that the decision has been made, no matter how valid an argument any one of us might have at this time. Instead, we now have to support the people that made the decision.

I have a bad habit of lurking and not participating, but after reading this discussion, I feel, personally, I have to be more active from now on. It's easy to point fingers in any direction but towards one's self. I have looked outward regarding a decision or change made to a game (not just this one) more times than I'd like to admit, but I hope I've managed to rectify those instances, and I hope that I will continue to reduce the amount I shift blame where it does not belong, or create blame where there was never meant to be any. I have comments I want to make to both "sides" of this argument, but doing so now would no longer be constructive. In fact, taking "sides" was a terrible way for me to put this, as it implies that we're two teams each trying to one-up each other instead of a community working together to make an enjoyable experience. As you can see, it's not difficult to accidentally create tension where there was none previously.

Returning to the point at hand, however, we should wrap this discussion up. I will support the decision made and the GMs and players who helped make it. As a close to my little tirade, I want to pose a series of questions I thought of as I continued to read the threads here. The questions, to me, are important because they are meant to delve into the heart of this game and this community.

Would I play this game if I had no stake in it / would I play a different game with the same people?
What can I do to make the game more fun for me personally, in union with any current rules or future changes made to the mechanics?
Because this is a group-based game, what can I do to make the game more fun for everyone?

*Sits back down*

*Shifts awkwardly*

While I know how you feel Mike, having talked plenty with you in private, it still sucks to hear/know all your "negative" feelings again, and makes me feel bad even at the thought that I could have participated in them (*cough* Repel/Banish *cough* lol). Here's hoping that as "just" an NPC and sometimes even PC, you get to enjoy the balance of positive experiences that some freedom can entail. I REALLY hope to share some of them with you as a fellow PC, whoever I play (even if Garritt is a damaged, moody dick sometimes. )
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Now, more on-topic....Trust me on this. Even after just two seasons (8 events) at Waypoint, which is very on-par with danger levels and rules as FH, I have a character there that while mechanically is a combat healer just like Marcus (with Marcus I finally found this type of character to be therapeutically enjoyable for me), he is arguably much more powerful at both combat and at healing than the character I have played for more than half a decade at two chapters. Trust me, he has half the soak of Marcus, but Tamyrlane could kill Marcus with his first two opening attacks, and immediately mitigate anything big Marcus could respond with. I could feel all the power I want over there and be happy.

But yet I still found myself worrying about whether I could continue playing Marcus or Garritt at FH, simply for the worry of losing the sheer roleplaying enjoyment tied to having an experienced character that can wax nostalgic about all his awesome experiences in Haven and Brennandale over the years to other characters who are newer in town, as I play mentor to anyone willing to listen. Sure, I love the skills I can bring to the table, but they are not all that more powerful than a level 5 healer built the same way. It's mostly just more perks (some of which I rarely even use!) and a trio of skills that are just expanded normal skills from hitting the three milestones of levels. The skills are just the icing on the cake of a character full of cool experiences, and simply facilitate ease of making more of the same. I'm not even sure that if I started a brand new character built exactly the same way over the same amount of time he could measure up, just on nostalgia alone.

Experienced warriors and prepared mages are tough cookies in their own ways, true. But I guarantee any prepared characters below level 5 could kill my level 40-something power character, especially a barely-leveled rogue. Marcus can be brought down by dual-wielding Goblins swinging two's, especially if I am playing especially ballsy and/or stupid. I loathe having to fight such monsters! Hell, the way Garritt is built, he has no Master Path at all, and as such cannot even get advanced no appropriate skill to specialize) or master path specialties at all if I want them, even while being a very high level! I have also passed up (arguably) better skills that came into game with every rewrite I have played either character through, to keep true to the characters.