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And on that plot you guys made a big deal about them, and then they werent there. The gm told us "you find two flags"

Flags are an awesome loot system. Ive seen it used in other games and, if its done right, it boosts the economy and gives PC something to do in between plots that doesnt require an NPC to entertain them.

I suggest the flags be numbered, not in numerical order, so taht they can be different in game things. For example the R14 flag is a womping willow Sapling that can be used for a special potion or as an anhancer to a current potion type(whatever the staff intends) while the X71 flag is a special crystal formation that can be used to reduce time off a cast spell or allow for some modification to area effect.

This will give the info horders something to write in thier journals too.

I think the craftsman model is a good basis, but as someone who ha splayed a wizard, and has talked with alchemists and wizard, part of the fun of that career path/discipline is the easter egg hunt fascet of finding new spells and recepies. I just feel they should either have a 3 GM/Marshal approval "council" or come from a pre set finite list that only monster camp has. IF research is allowed, it should only be allowed in game like any new rules submission, and as such not be a function of te research skill but as a side effect of the wizard path or the alchemist or arcane discipline.

My current beef with alchemy currently isn't the number of potions we can brew each event - but like any player, I won't complain if you let us brew more.

I want to be able to brew different potions. I'm not going to ask to have the capability of brewing 50 different potions, but having the same 4 over and over and over again we consider a little harsh - especially when we DID have every existing option at our fingertips previously.

My suggestion is this -

Keep in between game potions as is.

With an Alchemy lab (since we need to have a pretty good phys rep for it and spend the mystic for it) allow us a little bit of room there.

For Advanced, let us have our primary potion we know how to make (A) and a secondary (B). We are really good at making A. But instead of making A, we have the option of making B potion instead - which we aren't great at. If we choose to make our secondary potion with our Alchemy lab, we can still make it, but there's a chance we'll mess up and we really need to concentrate on it - so making potion B we need to spend an extra mystic or 2 (or whatever you feel is balanced) and maybe increase the time to brew by 10 minutes.

I do have a question on brew times though -

I feel the brew time at alchemy labs is rather insignificant. Game on, you get your lab, place the tag at the phys rep and go on a plot or talk with people for a bit and a few hours later, your potions are done.

Am I the only one that feels this way?

A few hours after game on, does there tend to be a small herd of alchemists at NPC camp collecting potions?

Also, I'm always a fan of more powerful spells and potions being gated by quest items - A fire elemental to Ug's Fuzzy Bunny for example.

The problem with that is how do you keep it fair? This group of people can have a fire elemental, but I'm going to say no to these people.

My suggestion is this -

Keep in between game potions as is.

uhm...potions can be brewed between games?!?!?!

I am in full force support of the nastiest and most potent spell and potion effect being "quest" related....as long as said quests can be done at any time so that the needed components can be had ahead of time of the effect being needed so as to not stall or delay a plot the PCs want to use it on...

the potions you get at start are "between games". That's what she means.

Wouldn't giving out magic items that allow the creation of new potions that are either in the book or not in the book satisfy the "easter egg hunt" and the ability to brew additional potions without a single change to the rules?

Add in herbs that potentially do the same thing

if they are in the book why do i need an item?


and no...it would not.

Could you expand on why it would not satisfy the requirments?

I said potions in and out of the book.

So you find a magic item (easter egg hunt) The item allows you to take a potion and change it into another potion (perhaps you have a choice of input items (magic components/potion and outputs..3 different type of potions)

This satisfies diversity and desire to do different things.

the magic item isnt an easter egg hunt...its an item

The egg hunt is about the fun of tracking down new knowledge that other wizard/mages are unlikely to have. Thats not satisfied by items and herbs.


and i said...if its already in the book why would i need anything to find it?

There are several people who request plots to help them find magic items of different types. We then use a combination of research and plot to discover the item. Heck I put one of these in as a plot a couple of events ago, but no one picked up on it. I might post the plot to get an idea of how we think.

Anyways why have a magic item that creates a potion in the book?

Because in the current system alchemists can only make certain potions and not other potions. This would allow an alchemist to convert a potion they know into a potion they do not know. Diversity without changing rules.

What I like about the magic item is it is analogous to giving out a potion formula, but the knowlege gained cannot be dissiminated across the player base. This creates true speciality. A guild of alchemists would have communial magic items they they could all use. Power can be taken by simply stealing the item. It also helps limit certain powerful potions. For example there is a bowl that allows you to convert 1 healing potion into 1 power of the vampire potion. The time it takes to convert the potion is 8 hours. This means I know exactly how many potions are going into game. On the other hand if I hand out a formula and 10 alchemists know it then I have 10 times that number potentially.

Wouldn't giving out magic items that allow the creation of new potions that are either in the book or not in the book satisfy the "easter egg hunt" and the ability to brew additional potions without a single change to the rules?

if they are in the book why do i need an item?

Anyways why have a magic item that creates a potion in the book?

Mike....where in these posts does it talk about magic items in the book?!?!?!?!
The parts in red are talking about potions.

Because in the current system alchemists can only make certain potions and not other potions. This would allow an alchemist to convert a potion they know into a potion they do not know. Diversity without changing rules.

But its diversity that REQUIRES magic items...the mages and alchemists do not want to have to reply on items for diversity.

What I like about the magic item is it is analogous to giving out a potion formula, but the knowlege gained cannot be dissiminated across the player base.

why do you care what the PCs do with it?

also helps limit certain powerful potions.

So would the requirement for specific herbs or minerals or components, AND it would limit the NUMBER of that potion as well.

The potion a person can create with alchemy is equal to:

The Herbs an alchemist must find Plus the magic item they must find.

or

The herbs an alchemist must find plus the recipe the alchemist must find.

In other words...

Herbs=H
Potion=P
Time=T
Magic Item =I
Reciepe=R

H +T + R=P (How alchemy use to be)
T + R =P (If herbs are not nessissary)

or

Receipe=Matic Item (R=I)
H+T+I=P

or with substitution
H + T +R=P which is equal to the above equation

Mathimatically they are the same except that the potion reciepe is transferable and the magic item is not.

I just want to make sure people are clear on what I am saying. I can see a solid argument for wanting a rescipe over a magic item. Now if you still do not see the systems as identical that is cool I will accept that and we can move on.

How do other people feel about the subject I brought up (basically argue with me not Brian? We shouldn't just have Brian and I talking?? or continue to post/evolve your own ideas

just becaus you assign a letter and place them between plus and equal signs does NOT mean they are equal. everything isnt a math problem.

I'm more curious how current people who produce potions actually use them.
I'm a TERRIBLE example, but other than two or three potions I keep in my pocket, my other potions are given/sold/used by other people. I can count on one hand the number of potions Quen has ever used on himself, or personally administered.
Quen is also about 50/50 Alchemy/Spells in his Wizard Path, yet I create a surplus of potions that may likely never get used as it is (for one reason, or another) and that's without even being a full-blown Alchemist (though I do use Alchemy labs too to produce more.)
So, personally, I don't see quantity as being an issue (though I can afford the labs I want), but what I would like is more diversity. With Alchemy labs allowing me to produce any potion within that Basic/Advanced/Master category, but in a limited quantity, it allows me to diversify a bit, while still keeping me "stuck" with the ones I took with my Path--which is still something I wish I could "unlearn" and "learn new" an event later, but with the Alchemy Labs allowing that ability to brew something mid-game that is needed at the event, I'm far less concerned than I was before.

So, to put it another way, I'm still producing more than folks are using even though I'm not a full-blown Alchemist, but I utilize (for a cost) Alchemy labs. I'd love to see more potion options to choose from, that I can use my Alchemy Lab to produce if need-be, of course, but being that Labs allow me to make potions outside of my Path potions, I'm content at the moment. But, then again, I'm not using my own potions either.

--------------------------Just an idea----------------------------
NOW, a silly suggestion, and I'm not sure how it would logistically work, but here's a concept I was toying with a while back for Crafting, but it could go along with Alchemy too, in some way...

What about "Omni-Potions" of some sort? Basically you acquire/brew different potions together so that each potion can be tailored?
Ingredient + Production Time + Item + Time to activate + Effect + Duration = Item

Ingredients could have various costs needed to acquire/produce (heck, maybe much like requiring the Dwarven metals, you need to spend time producing the materials that go into the materials, thus increasing the time for really powerful things. Or you have to quest for the items.

Production Time could vary based on any number of things, including a base cost, the number of ingredients/components necessary

Item: based on whether it's a potion, or another item--maybe it's easier to make something into something you drink, rather than forging it into an amulet.

Time to Activate: Drink a potion and wait... 3 minutes? 1 minute? 30 seconds? 10 seconds? Instant? The faster it works, the more time it would take to make, or an ingredient that "hastens" the activation?

Effect: Obviously the most important part of the item, but maybe have a list of things/powers/abilities that it does. Heal 1, +1 to damage, +1 to soak, Resist Magic, etc. You can multiply these so that (unless you put a cap onto the number of effects an item/potion has) you could create a truly monstrous potion/item... that took 5 games to produce, or just a quick "Cure 1" potion.

Duration: For effects that required durrations (like +1 armor, resistance to Magic), it could be 30 seconds, 5 minutes, scene, day, event, etc. Again, duration would require significant multipliers in time and such.

Anyways, this is just a thought. Yes, it has the potential of being "abused", and "unbalancing" if there are not caps put onto it, but it could also allow for a craftsman, or Wizard to produce those legendary items in-game. Maybe how much you can add on is based on Basic/Advanced/Master paths AND Level (for every 20 levels, you can add an additional tier of stuff?)
Again, lots of flaws here, a lot of potential for massive over-powering, but if it was balanced out well, it would not only give players the ability to customize things and tailor them to specific need (A sword that poisons, A Heal 30, a Super Cleansing potion, A medallion that allows for Immunity to Magic for an hour, etc.), but also would require players to read the potions they have to know what they do.

I fully understand the item vs herb debacle from both sides, I'm not touching that can of worms.

Art, I make only a few potions, but the breakdown for me is: healing, goes into someone that's down when a healer can't pounce immedietly. Without first aid, I can't tell if it'lll get them up or just be wasted, but it's the gamble. Offensive potions go to my fighters when something big shows up. Defensive potions go to casters to keep them up, LP boosting potions are for me, when I need to activate many skills.

I dislike the idea of recipes for the same reason. The ability to create the high powered item that player A did who knows what to get is now in the hands of everyone in 3 events. Major escalation ensues.

With the magic item, or specialized alembic, or calcinator, or herb, or whatever name you give to [item xyz] that allows it to happen bottlenecks that. Having everyone brew 12 of the uber potion is something the GMs should care about. If all the PCs now have the abikity to swing 15, and can only be hurt by disease crush, they need to know. Otherwise the game devolves into "pick up stick. Flail indiscriminatly. Win".

I think if the hypothetical 50 potions exist, or whatever number, whether publicly known or hidden, or whatever. I think no one should have access to EVERYTHING and unless incredibly specialized to that craft, they shouldn't be able to brew everything they have access to. If there's 50 potions, Quen might know 30 and able to brew 20 of them each event. Panak might know 15 and be able to brew 8. Smitty might now 40, and able to brew 35 of those...

You can't please all the people all the time.