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this isnt josh its MATT this is my other pc cuz i forgot vox's password. i didnt say anyone was stupid. i said the proposed rule is.

if the gm staff is going to say how to hold and use a shield than why dont we just make them illegal?

and if an npc is using a shield and is swinging at a pcs feet what is the deal? they should know the rules right?

i use a shield and it causes me to need to pick my strikes carefully. i feel the diff is the lack of care on the npc side as to the life of what they are playing.

as fare as the swing under the shield i stated befor that i can swing under my shield with out lifting it or leaning out or hitting illegal target areas. so should i be dissalowed because im good and safe about it? no

i think turtleing is legit. if you cant hit him than back up and make them come to you. if im near dead and monsters are still atacking me im going to turtle. it makes you a very small target, but you also cant move or strike fast.

i thought that hideing behind it was the point of haveing a shield in the first place.

A shield is to protect you from attacks. I do not believe it is to "hide" behind while you strike low, or to attack blindly from behind of, at least not in this game. While this could be a decent attack strategy in the real world, FH is not a "fight simulator". Someone could kick such an attacker, but rules forbid it. They could charge them, but rules forbid it, or could throw fire at such a person, but rules forbid it. I only mention this because "it's a good strategy" doesn't hold up when the counters to it aren't allowed either. (While a "kick" could be considered a "Press", the mechanical equivelant to turtling would be "hold ground", would it not?)

There are other people who may be able to claim that they can "kick" safely, knowing just how hard to do so and not hurting someone, or charge, use chain-weapons, etc. without causing any injury. Even if that were the case, the rule is there because others may not be able to, and so rather than encourage them to do so for their own benefit at the risk of safety of other players, the rules are there to protect everyone.

The concern here is two-fold, I believe. First, it's the person using a weapon without knowing just where they're striking, and doing so in a way that could be a trip hazzard. The other is the shield itself when it is "raised", the attention is on the attack, not what you're doing with the shield above you.

I think turtling also encourages the opponent to potentially react in ways that could be dangerous to the "Turtler" as well, whether because they're less balanced and could be knocked over onto/into something or make themselves likely to be trampled as well. Likewise, players are discouraged from climbing trees, fighting on steps, etc., not because it would be too "adventageous" for the attacker, but because it is possibly dangerous for them as well.

I think the game has likely progressed over the years from a much more physical roleplaying game to one with more focus on the rules and non-combat as well. While the physicality of Final Haven combat and foam combat/boffer LARPs will remain, safety for all is a bit more important to everyone, I think, so that story and heroics are more accessable.

... regarding a rule change, or clarification, I think "swinging under a large shield is not allowed" would (or at least should) cover both an attacker using a shield to block, as well as a defender who has someone jabbing at their feet.
... and if the shields themselves are dangerous (not enough padding on the edges or on the front, or have protruding jabby-bits?), anyone with a concern could/should let a GM staff member know so that the appointed "weapons marshal" can make a judgement call. This also would go for any other phys-rep, or costume piece as well.

Perhaps we can lock this thread until tomorrow when cooler heads can assess the topic with a little more... objectivity? *bats eyelashes and pleads for peace*

I've only just started using a shield... and I'll be honest, I kinda think they rock. I'd hate to see that change. I never quite appreciated how useful they were. However, there are a few things to consider:

Safety first - I love a good fight, I really, really do. Sometimes you go home with some bruises of which to be proud. However, someone getting tripped up can cause a lost eye or broken bones. That isn't quite so fun. Not that we've ever had it happen, but we do have to be reasonable. I don't honestly see a problem with a player using good tactics and crouching. That's one of the real benefits of a shield. A smaller target is better, always.

We're making an issue out of something that has never BEEN an issue. We've always just appreciated good tactics. Can't get to that NPC? Better go find an empath to blow up his shield. It's a good role playing scene, and good tactics, I don't see that we should punish that.

Swinging AT feet... maybe not a good idea. Like hands. We just need to be reasonable. No, a shield can't cover you neck to ankle. However, if you can duck and move so no one can get in a good hit, well... you're a good defensive fighter. I envy that. So, no need to hit feet, just gotta be a smarter fighter. ^_~

Swinging under a shield - well... as long as you can hit a LEGAL target zone... why not? Why punish good tactics? If someone else is permitted to swing AT me under my shield, why can I not use it as a legal combat zone as well? Also, can someone using me and my shield for cover not swing under my shield either? That would be a bummer, because it's a very clever combat tactic.

Nothing is yet decided... so as yet, there's no reason for anyone to get heated. We can strongly argue, because we are passionate about larp, which is GOOD. But, let's kinda try and remember that this is something we do for fun, ya? FUN. *wink*

perhaps we could consider looking over the rules again for the placement of shield when in use and safety standards as well. i dont think i really have a problem with someone swinging low while defending with their shield, so long as they arnt bent over and turtling, but where they put that shield while they are swinging low is what worries me. most shield that i see in game have some(emphasis on some) padding around the edges and bare wood/metal in the center, while this looks nice, in the situation previously described that wooden or metal center could bash me in the face without intention. if we up the standards that we have for shields to be the same as swords(being that all surfaces be covered in CERTIFIED CLOSED CELL foam, not the crappy thin rubber pipe insulation that is currently on many shields), then id be ok with swinging under them.

Holy Cow!

I've been suggesting safe fighting demo's for awhile now and I finally got a yes from Chris this weekend so expect that to be in place next year.

Reading Aaron's post on fighting expectations I disagree with one thing and that's wrapping, shields are so big in FH that you can't remove wrapping all together. But the GM's will be consulted on what they want included in the demo and how it will be presented.

Fighting unsafely should be avoided at all costs, no one wants to go out for the weekend and come home with an injury because someone wasn't being safe.

i kicked him off the computer so he could calm down,

on topic, what the NPC's were doing was lame, yes, but thats an extreme case that has never happened, i think as long as you cant lift your shield over your head it could be fine.

def agree to that point, but iv been meaning to bring this topic up for a while, some peoples shields are quite unsafe in a combat type environment. the all foam ones are perfectly find, and many of the smaller buckler type ones are good as well, since they dont usually have protruding edges. but iv noticed that quite a few large shields have DRASTICLY inadequate padding on their corners and edged. iv personally been throated by one of these poorly padded shields, and its a starfish every time. if were going to be looking over the safety of shield use, edge padding should be number one on the list.

the rules stae a shield must have enough edge foam so the rim can not be felt. no embelsiuments that are sharp, etc.


if you have a concern, make sure the weapons Marshall is informed.

One suggestion to stop ankle biting and turtling: Don't count hits that land below the knee.



I've been boffer fighting for over 12 years now and I come from a background that has decidedly more physical combat than FH/WH. The biggest criticism I have of the overall fighting at FH is the lack of defensive fighting. Most times I see people swinging randomly or holding their swords at waist level and "crab attacking", with no regard to defense.

Most people who are using shield at FH have a tendency to fight from a crouched position, putting the shield directly in front of their body and leaning their face over the top edge of the shield. This is a result of watching to many movies and ends up with swords being deflected into the face.

Using a shield safely is something that needs to be shown to people. Proper methods of presenting the shield and defending against incoming swings as well as how to swing back.

The last I checked, a shield can be no wider than ones shoulders and can not be anu taller than you shoulders when you are kneeling down. I know my shield it exactly that. No more or no less.

Do people feel that makes shields to large? Or are people's shield's larger than what the rule is?

As for wrapping. I see your point Erik, but how can you wrap from the front if you need to be at least 2 feet away as per the charging rules? I know it can be easly done from the sides and or back. By from the front? I know I can't hit a person on the back when I stand in front of them with out breaking the charging rules

Crouching totaly behind shields (Aka you are almost kneeling down), BAD IDEA!!!! It will lead to turtiling and getting hurt. I have no issue with just crouching down a little when fighting, that is how a martial artist is taught (always keep the knee's bent!)

If a knee's down hit takes no damage would mean shield sizes have to be reduced!!

Ankels down works for well becasue the valid to hit areas with people who have shields are peoples shoulders, arm, and shin's.

subjective shield size should really not be in the rules, there should really be a set size for all shields. because, a shield for erik or taki is a turtling shield for me or christen. there should really be set parameters. also for leg damage, id go by dagorhir rules, foot on ground doesnt count, if you pick your foot up and get hit, it counts.

I disagree. Shields should be based on the size of the person, but only that person can use that shield.

There are many arguments about shield sizes in all larps. None are right or wrong. It is personal preference.

But a shield in a larp is a giant benifit period. I'm surprised more folks do not use shields. In my opion. sword and board is the best fighting style in a Carps or FH combat system. There are others that disagree and say two swords are the best. It is all a matter of preference. I have used both, and I love my sword and board.

My shield is one of the reason my NPC's lasted so long in the big battle! Add in resist magic, and you take alot of damage!!!

but thats just it, there isnt a rule that im aware of the explicitly states that a shield cannot be used unless it was made specificly for you.

Well I will point out a couple things.

1) If you are upset then you are truly not understanding what we are talking about. Honestly I don’t think many are upset, maybe just a couple of you.

2) This is not PC’s so much complaining about NPC's. This is PC's complaining about other PC's.

3) We are being proactive. We spoke with Temple at the end of last event as we were gathering feedback and we WILL put together combat demo's. I also want to create a video and picture FAQ. Why? Because showing pictures and video's is much better than describing it on paper. It would be like describing figure skating in writing, reading it, and then being a good judge. This is a standard practice used in multiple industries and has been scientifically proven to be more accurate.

Now that said there are some other ways to allow safe shield usage and I will throw out some ideas. I do not endorse any of it, I am just brain storming.

1) Require Dagohir style shields. This would eliminate, or at least lessen, the chance of injury when fighting a person with a shield.
A) With this requirement we could discuss shield bash as a skill.
2) Create an alternate way to destroy shields other than through the empath channel skill. This would give a mechanical way to "fight" the turtle" I am thinking something like a 5 count to destroy a shield or perhaps when faced with a turtle you swing 1 crush (no more or less).
3) If you ever hit a person in the face with a shield you are insta dead with no chance of rez.

So there are my ideas.

And just to clarify, this is coming up because it HAS been an issue these last two events, and not just from NPCs doing it (I have no idea where that idea came from) but from PCs as well. We have had multiple shields to the face, one of which was a good enough shot that the NPC had to remove herself from combat. The ankle biting has not resulted in any serious injury, but neither has fighting on stairs or bridges. That doesn't mean it is a safe maneuver.

Thus the safe fighting demos which Erik is heading.

Also, if I am coming off upset, I'm not. It's just my job to make sure things remain civil...