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Personally, I like research. If you guys are having issues with research requests - especially those in the way of spells/items/potions, perhaps you should maybe learn to tell the players 'NO' more often. Not every bit of research should/needs to be successful.

... Or, the results of research are not exactly what they wanted but you could say, 'You discover there is a man named joebobdave who is very wise in the ways of saidsubject. You feel the answers may lie with him."
I'd say that is a reasonable research outcome depending on what was researched... and it leads to in-game roleplaying and plots.

Or -

"As you are researching superpowerspellX and looking through stacks of old books and scrolls, you come across an ancient tomb and within its pages you find the spell/recipe you were looking for. However, it seems half of the page is missing.."
So here we see the spell does exist out there somewhere. Now it's up to the player to either find the missing part of the page, do some trial and error based on the available information, or maybe even try to find the person who wrote the book.. or maybe come up with their own idea of what to do. Again - more in game plots/roleplaying.

Now if someone is too vague with a spell request, "I want a spell that will blow stuff up!" give them something like Ug's Fuzzy Bunny. (They didn't ask for a new spell AND is another new spell really needed here?)

All of that is already being done and has been for years. We don't approve every request that comes through (and honestly it's surprising to think someone thinks we do--you must have been very lucky), we often give descriptions of progress though not always and less this year and have given plot hooks through research.

I'm not sure how I feel about removing research...

I think if people are handing in vauge research requests for things like potions, spells, and craftsman items they should auto fail. In the mean time I want to give this new way a chance because I think that it opens up opertunities for research to be in-game and when you do things in-game it gives you more of sense of accomplishment. When people get these cool spells and potions it will make them that much more valuble. Instead of 'I put in my research request on a piece of paper and waited and I got the kill spell' it could be 'My friends and I scoured the Ruins of Silverthorne for lost lore in order to find the last words of power to complete my spell'

Maybe research could be like a guide and the Pc's take it the rest of the way there. I think that's what the new system is trying to do. Maybe you have to drop a couple coin on drinks so that guy will tell you how to get to the Ruins of Silverthorne. I think if you have to pay coin or resource it won't be like a flat fee, hopefully there will be an in-game reason for it like in the example above. Maybe someone will teach you the spell, or you have to hire some test subjects.

heh...pretty much what Angie said but I'm a slow typer.

Oh and we've also given out current spells instead of making new ones when requests have been vague

Please don't misunderstand, I think this is a very interesting concept. I'm just worried about wanting to research "X" when all that is mapped out is research of "A" through "W". Does that make sense?

Removing research from the game is definately one way to stem the flow of 'icky' that you want to deal with, but the majority of the issues are already in-game.

On the same note, leaving it in and giving it a variable cost gives you the same "swiss army knife" that alchemy, arcane, and craftsman have become.

This statement proves to me that people have absolutely no idea what I was talking about from the get go.

So here is how this is going to go. I am going to proceed with what I am doing, if it fails then I will refund ANYTHING you have spent AND on the last event of the year I will bring presents for anyone I needed to refund stuff to. So this way you dont have to worry about being "screwed" and might even get a rpesent out of the deal.

If you are too concerned PM me and we can exchange phone numbers and I will be more than happy to chat on the phone.

Can I just have a present?

Ovak Stonecrusher wrote:All of that is already being done and has been for years. We don't approve every request that comes through (and honestly it's surprising to think someone thinks we do--you must have been very lucky), we often give descriptions of progress though not always and less this year and have given plot hooks through research.

No, Mike, I don't think that. Just following this thread I've seen -

I want a first level spell that in 5 minutes will kill everyone withint he sound of my voice

"I want a 3rd level spell that does damage" and then we the GM's have spent hours trying to come up with a new spell.

as examples as to the problems with current research system. Granted I don't make decisions on the outcome of players' research, but in my opinion, the two above would take almost no time at all. The first example I think would never get approved and the second would get a pre-existing 3rd level damage spell.

What I was meaning to say in my above post was that it seems you guys are getting swamped after every event for new spells, new potions, new - new - new - new!! - And my suggestion is to either say no more often (Not that you guys never say no), make them take longer..

..or don't give out spells/recipes on the research return forms - Just the information on where they can find it. Then make it up to the person in game to do the leg work and get what they want.

I guess the downside to that is that everyone during the event may be trying to pull a GM/NPC for their own research plot instead of allowing said GM/NPC to run the plots on the schedule... and well, then we wouldn't have much in the way of an event.

Anyway, I don't think I like the new adaptation of how research works, but I do hope that after I've seen it in progress, Chris will have made me changed my mind.

I assure, they do say no. *LOL*

As a policy, you should at LEAST get a "yes, someday this could work" or "No. never try again nerd b oy." in one event.

I say that because you paid for research.

At WH, that's what we do. if the research takes longer, it takes longer. We tell them how their progress have been doing etc.

It's not that the work that does go on isn't appreciated, that certainly isn't the case. Would I have liked to see some clear definite formats for research? Yes. Would I have rather it had been all laid out and guidelined as to how research was supposed to be submitted, handled and returned to people? Yes, most definitely. Has it really been that much of a big deal, obviously not as I'm not a person that keeps quiet when I feel something is way off or I would have been trumpeting it from the mountains like I have craftsman for years. Truthfully, if IBE research went away I wouldn't care much at all, I'd try and do it at the games where I can keep coming back and being in peoples faces asking for something. If it went away all together I suspect that plot would dump info on us more often.

If Research is being removed then that severely under powers and almost defeats Arcane and Alchemist.

underpowerz.


it's over powered NOW. removing it makes it LESS over powered.

who can do anything any skill can do? arcanes and alch. who can do things no one else can do? ohh yah, same thing.

not to say NO new stuff ould get in, just that it would be released in a manner according the gm will.

Then in all honesty I wouldn't mind Research, not totally being removed, just limited to plot related things, as well as GMs introducing spells and potions in the game. Like if we fight an arcane, we find his spellbook or traders with scrolls of recipes to trade stuff like that.

And Please also then have there be some sort of forum for spell/recipe suggestions/disscusions that players can tell GM's and such.

Or if research is still around in full, I really like the cost idea. Having to spend components to do it but would like more feedback on how close or hopless the resarch is.

Research - would love to see it gone or just put to plot related stuff

Alchemy, Arcane, Craftsman,....underpowered?? NOT A CHANCE IN THE WORLD!!!

Spells, Potions, and new items being released only in game through plots?....Love the idea

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we all know potions and spells are overpowered, a level 4 arcane or alchemist could beat almost EVERY BUILD in the game, so when people try to defend them i have no sympathy for them.

almost the only thing researched are new potions, spells, or items, no reason to keep feeding whats already overpowered, just make it plot stuff, thats what sages are best for.

As someone who was forced as a PC to take 'Research' just to use the Craft/Arcane abilities (and I say forced because it was argued for several years the it wasnt inherent in the skills to be able to research them), and as a GM who has tried (and failed miserably) to handle the behind the scenes R&D i.e. 'research' I think I can offer this.

*Charging for the research is a disservice to the game and makes a tedious mechanic more cumbersome. Its a fine example of micro management.
*Research itself is a very VERY laborous ordeal for the GMs. If we ran the game as a job, and punched in from 9to5 everyday then it would be a much different animal. Alas it is not, and should be recognised as such.
*Any Research that becomes 'non-skill related' i.e. 'plot reward' means that it will fall into the hands (and often ONLY into the hands) of the powerful. see: Guild of Light etc.

As falible as the system is it currently serves a perfect median for the amount of effort the GMs can supply. Any variant adjustments favor the wealthy, the innitiated, the mongers, instead of the people who have actually purchased the skill. The PCs who invested Character Points in a 'worthless skill' so they can role-play the characters they conceptualized.