Potion/spell/ blacksmith books

[GM-Mike]

Travis, is the question: How does one steal a spell book? Is that where the confusion is coming from? If you steal a spell book, what do you do with it? Can someone copy down the spells that are written in out of game english, even though the character could not write in the first place so the english is really pictographs? And if there is no tag, how can someone steal the item and return it to NPC camp before they are considered to be out of game thiefs?

The tag that you are asking for then would be something along the lines of labeling it as a spell book and what the contents are written in?

If that is what you are saying, those are solid points.

[WayneO42]

Would you require that every time someone copied a spell or recipe they brought it to the GM's for approval and a tag?

yes

[cole45]

That is exactly what I want. A gm reviewed book, with a tag to make it exist in game.

It would easily eliminate several large problems, including but limited to make the theft in game as opposed to out, requing current versions of potions and spells.

[Kalphoenix]

Sorry, I realize I have multiple lines of thought going in this thread.

A. I'd never go for "labs", that are free just due to physreps. While they work there, there is no need for them here. Want to brew things faster? Get more alchemists. Or use commodities to create some tagged items that give a benefit and therefore force physreps, require upkeep, and fit into the system.

B. There's a big difference between armor and labs. Armor already requires a physrep to get any bonus. And the 'bonus' is so insignificant that it's nigh worthless overall. But giving 'a substantial cut in time' is a major bonus to alchemy, which is completely outside the tiny bonus given to armor.

a.) Yeah, I'm not talking an easy to make forge or alchemy lab for basic use, I'm talking about expensive-to-make (Maximus mentioned involving commodities, that sounds more than appropriate) facilities. Ones you would want well-protected. Ones that would make the process either faster/better, etc. I was talking about avenues of items that could be researched, not free tools for basic use.

b.) I think maybe I'm missing your point here? I don't see it as a tiny bonus, I THOUGHT (Please correct me if I'm wrong, I may very well be) that if you wore "fake" armor that it counted as one category less than it actually was. I consider that a pretty big penalty for improper/inadequate phys-reps. Anyway, I'm getting off track here, I'm not exactly saying that folks need to have GOOD phys-reps, just that that workspace should exist and should be tagged. Currently brewing potion tags (easy enough to represent with the current potion tags as "brewing," perhaps even the finish time, since that should be static) should be represented and able to be interacted with.

Where the person is, is where that activity is taking place. When they are not doing such activites all there gear is stored away. A person should roleplay out the activity or tell people what they are doing so people can react accordingly.

That's the issue. Alchemy processes can take a long time and the alchemist is only required to be present for prep and gathering times. During the brew time (Which is easily 6+ hours) the alchemist is generally doing something else. The rest of the time, the potion can be (and usually is) unattended, at least by the maker, therefore, no phys-rep.

As for brewing potions, once they are mixes and waiting to mature, they can taken anywhere. there is as much risk to the potion if it sits under someones bed or if they are on the person. Both can be found and stolen.

No, they can't be stolen or affected in any way. They aren't tagged. They do not exist. People CONTINUALLY forget this rule. If it isn't tagged it doesn't exist in-game and cannot be stolen/affected. A building without a tag isn't a building. A weapon without a tag cannot be used. Armor without a tag provides NO benefits. Potions also do NOT exist until they are finished as it stands now. I also think it's really silly to allow people to carry brewing potions around adventuring without any penalty, but it seems that this is the current rule. I have no need to disclose the fact that I have brewing potions on me when I am made unconscious/dead since they don't exist. It is cheesy? Yes. It is legal? Totally.

Let's say I wanted to be sneaky and interact with your potion while you weren't there? I would have no way of doing so without telling you, thereby creating an out-of-game issue that I thought we were trying to remove by taking out things like invisibility and passwall.

It's like weapons. We don't necessarily expect people to have great looking weapons, just that they are safe and functional and that they EXIST.

All I'm asking is for is that brewing stations exist (A paper-sized tag would be fine) and that it is made unreasonable for players to carry brewing pots/vials/whatever of alchemical concoctions around when they are brewing. The current way says that potions are invincible once they have started brewing. It should be at least as difficult to carry around a brewing potion as it would be to carry around a body: Walking speed only. I'd personally like to take it a step further and say that any aggressive contact made on the person while they are carrying a brewing potion destroys the mixture (Perhaps with re-percussions to the holder, like damage from the potion spilling on them). Tagging brewing potions solves a lot of these issues. You could also keep easier track of potions this way by putting the finishing time on the tag.

[WayneO42]

I think maybe I'm missing your point here? I don't see it as a tiny bonus, I THOUGHT (Please correct me if I'm wrong, I may very well be) that if you wore "fake" armor that it counted as one category less than it actually was

You're wrong. Fake armor's only negative is that it must be removed to be repaired.

No, they can't be stolen or affected in any way. They aren't tagged. They do not exist. People CONTINUALLY forget this rule. If it isn't tagged it doesn't exist in-game and cannot be stolen/affected. A building without a tag isn't a building. A weapon without a tag cannot be used. Armor without a tag provides NO benefits. Potions also do NOT exist until they are finished as it stands now

Wooooo...Slow down there Tex. Tags are needed for items that impart an advantage to the user through game mechanics. Not ALL items need to be tagged. I dont tag my cloak. I dont tag my bottles. There comes a point where you need to use your head for more than a hat rack and apply some common sense. On the "Theifs" side, if you see an item that is clearly oput of game, dont take it because it probably is out of game. For everyone elses part, leave out of game items out of the game area or in a container that is clearly marked as out of game. Simple.

As for potions, I think all we need to do is say that the potion tag needs to be filled out during the prep time and then labelled as "Brewing". Maybe an envelope that has the tag in it with the words "Brewing" across the front.

[Kalphoenix]

Your wrong. Fake armor's only negative is that it must be removed to be repaired.

Awesome. Thanks for clarifying that, I got mixed up from back when we were having the armor discussion. I will stop citing armor in my examples.

Not ALL items need to be tagged. I dont tag my cloak. I dont tag my bottles.

Alright, I got a little carried away by saying NOTHING exists unless it is tagged , however, your bottles or cloak don't provide an in-game advantage to your character. An item doesn't mechanically exist unless it is tagged. There is no need to tag your cloak or bottles because I can't really do anything to/with them, roleplaying aside. Carrying around (or just having somewhere) an invisible, invincible brewing potion offers a pretty huge advantage. Common sense doesn't stop people from doing things that are legal as per the rules in-game. I don't HAVE to say I have it on me if it doesn't have to be represented in some way. There are things people will twist to their advantage until it is clarified and I'm sure we have at least a few. Not everything can be clarified, but this is an easy fix.

As for potions, I think all we need to do is say that the potion tag needs to be filled out during the prep time and then labeled as "Brewing". Maybe an envelope that has the tag in it with the words "Brewing" across the front.

This would take care of 77% of my alchemy concerns. I especially like the envelope idea. I just want them to exist so they can actually be interacted with.

My only other real concern (17%) is about carrying around brewing potions, I really think they should have repercussions if they are broken while the person has them (Is it still a charge, even if it is for 13 hours?), but tags would waylay my concern on this just a slight bit. Does it actually say somewhere that brewing potions (out of the gathering/prep stage) cannot be disrupted? Letting people carry around brewing alchemy potions without any repercussions seems odd. How do you carry around a bubbling flask or burning coals without having issues? Even if you are baking something to represent your alchemy process, doesn't it still need to be in an oven? Brewing is generally represented by a chemical reaction of some kind, not usually so small to escape all notice. It is called brewing, not settling.

The reason why I am concerned about this kinds of things is that I don't want to feel like I am fudging rules or being cheesy. I also, however, don't want to put myself at a huge disadvantage just because I feel it shouldn't work a certain way when it actually does as per the rules (and is the way most folks are applying it).

Like gathering, for instance (5%), you can gather in the corner of the Inn or steal seasonings from Sen in the kitchen (Or say you haggled some town-person in the inn for it), rather than actually going outside where you could get injured or attacked. It feels a little cheesy, but it's allowed and can technically be justified through storytelling. You could even say you gathered it already and are just pre-preparing the materials. I only ever see a few people get someone to defend them while they go gather. I commend these minority, who are putting themselves at risk for the sake of roleplaying, but I wonder if they would still feel good about it if they got their character (Or another) killed doing it by a random monster attack. What is the method encouraged/enforced for gathering?

The remaining 1% falls into the category of things I haven't thought of yet

[WayneO42]

I think you are trying to force role-playing through mechanics. This never works well. The best way to force role-playing is peer pressure. If you think alchemy should be physically represented more, then do it! Then, pressure your fellow alchemists to do it. Once you step it up a notch, others will follow. By encouraging good role-playing through peer pressure people tend to try and out do each other. When enforcing role-playing through mechanics, people tend to shoot for the minimum.

[Kalphoenix]

That's fine. I don't expect people to bring all the things some folks do when they play their alchemist. I'm happy with a bare minimum of a brewing envelope and tags. That's what I want, is for brewing potions to either exist or not exist.

I'm not looking to bully people into roleplaying by forcing rules, but I can't see putting myself at a huge disadvantage because I choose to, either. If it really is worth the effort and makes me feel good about doing it, sure, but even I have my breaking point

If there is a penalty for carry around brewing potions, which makes sense given what brewing is, people won't carry them around when they are fighting.