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That is true. PVP and Pk is not everyone's bag. But I was under the impression that it was okay with the GM's of this game.

CARPS has become a venue for those of you who do not like PK. That element has become so difficult to acheive that it has virtually stopped. I happen to enjoy a good intrigue and like pk'ing. It's a game and if I have to start over then so be it. As long as it's for in-game reasons, I have no complaints. Targeting a PC because you don't like the person playing them is wrong. Targeting PC's because you are a homicidal maniac who has taken a disliking to humanity is roleplaying.

If you are abhorrently against any type of PKing, then try CARPS. I'm not scared at CARPS anymore, and that's why I come to FH. I have played CARPS for 8 years, and watched many transitions. I enjoy it for what it is, and enoy FH for what it is.

If FH is not condoning PVP then I'd like to know now. It's a game that doesn't celebrate PK, but puts it out there. During my first event I died 3 times. During my 2nd event I died again. I was stolen during my third event and hacked to bits. Now, a few years later, my PC has been sewn back together and morphed into something new. That was something RP'd between me and the GM's. But I didn't argue it, IT's a game.

I hope you meet my PC in the future. Ask her about her life, and why she looks the way she does. Few people have investigated, let alone asked. There are options out there to avoid death. There are ways to come back. And there is always the opportunity to play something different. The beauty of FH is that starting over is easy. You don't have to be attached, because there is always something new.

First off, I think I am the ONLY person that got to see an equal amount of what happened on both sides so I think I have a very unique perspective.

The town had the same problem it's always had, organization. The very first mission of the night on Fri to check what was going on with the red glowing light and people there. About 10-12 people went and I gave very simple instructions, but noone listened. I understand that people have their own personalities and and may feel like they have a better idea at the moment but that gets people dead. Great for RP, but then people can't really complain that the opposition is overwhelming when Elder Quetzel is in the front lines and a fully armored warrior is "gaurding the rear."

You can't expect this game to be like the fariy tales or the books, when you are dealing with a maniacal psychopathic megalomaniac ALL BETS ARE OFF!!! Stop whining about how bodies and people that came to treatise were treated.

For anyone that thinks that Pen's group wasn't playing like PC's stuff it in a sock and shove it where the sun don't shine. Even as a PC I could see that, in the encounter (Sat day) whwere I died they could only see Arthos and Ka behind them Me and 3 people behind me on the trail in front of them and they were scared. I don't think they realized I could hear everything they were saying but I could and all it took was a whistle and they nearly panicked. "He's signaling he's signaling watch out, what do we do, should we go back or attack." And then being on that side they definitely were terrified of Quetzel and scared for losing their own lives. so squash that crap now.

I can understand being upset about standing in the cold waiting for an attack that never happened, but I really can't understand why everyone was so sure there was going to be an attack. OK OOG theres usually a battle Sat night but this wasn't a normal event in ANY way and anyone that had been to an event before should have known from the start that it wasn't going to be. And Pen's group hadn't attacked the Havenites in the town at all yet. Perhaps it is that people just didn't understand Pen's mentality, he's not so arrogant as to think he's invincible, hell he ran from me when he thought that the battle was going badly when he was in Haven, just like I ran from Conner when I though I was going to die.

All in all, I think alot of people had alot of misconceptions about what was happening on the "villian" PC side and a few other things which got them upset but things rarely go as expected. If a couple of the older Havenites that were going out on missions had shown a backbone and layed down exactly how things were going to be in the missions things would have been very different. I wholeheartedly include myself in that as well, Atrum wanted to gather everyone as soon as we got through the portal and do just that but he didn't for a few reasons and it cost him his life. So be it, mistakes were made and the outcome sucked ass for quite a few people. Those things happen don't whine about walking into a camp of evil bastards and dying because you couldn't weasel out of it or your "good" didn't win out. I commend Matt (Gin) he was able to come and talk to us a few times and still get away with not joining up. Arthos as well for the most part, until he made the collasal mistake of thinking that Pen would accept a Spy into the fold.

I had a great time on both sides of the action, but then again I try and just roll with the punches and have very few expectations of how things should go. maybe some people need to adopt more of that philosophy about LARP.

As far as political pitches and such, the last 2 events have been about nothing but survival, things should return to their normal chaos and distrust now.

I didn't play this weekend, but I had fun watching the groups.
I had a very interesting ability to move between the GMs, Havenites and Pegagians, watching, listening and following. I was fortunate enough that I could keep busy when I wanted to by going from one group to another and occupying my time by photographing things when things were at their "dullest". I didn't have to worry about rules, about story or characters, so I was seperated from all of that as an observer, voyer and audience. For much of that I'm glad for (well, except for my legs which are STILL aching!).

Among a lot of great RPing (I can't even wear a hat... my head is mis-shapen!) and great battles (Noonish battle on the hill! 30 people fighting on a wooded, slippery hill! Wow. And yes, we've got video of that) saw a lot of frustration from everyone... (from my own observation) Havenites in a new location, waiting for GMs to toss plots and information at them while fearing from an unknown army of the Evil Pentag. The Pentagians frustrated with the inactions of Havenites and a leader who they felt was holding back when their prey was vulnerable. The GMs who perhaps felt their story and characters were overshadowed by the fear and concerns between the two opposing forces and perhaps felt their timed plans slipping through their fingers as players were consumed with issues aside from the agenda.

But beyond that, I hope that folks did find some pleasure from the event.
I hope that the deadlier rules of ... well, death won't keep people from fighting, but will keep people from mindlessly going out and attacking enemies. However, I hope that the GMs also contain themselves and not be as "deadly" as they have been in the past (I don't think the deathcount was much higher than it has been in the past, just that the people who died stayed dead?) I hope that even though players may have been dissapointed, their characters will take what they learned and grow from it, however that may be.

Dredge wrote:I am not saying you meeting before hand is bad, but I am saying it is an unavailable option to many people and that unifying people playing characters ala a normal rpg setting is harder than it sounds.

Pentag's group wasn't exactly "born into the organization" (though the characters were obviously created into the organization if that's what you mean), but I would point out that the Phoenix Guard (and affiliated characters) were created in much the same way. Players got together, talked about histories, agreed to follow orders... and as soon as (most) characters came in (or a game or two in), they lost their structure as the players' own personalities over-whelmed the characters' previously presumed interests (questioning, disobeying orders, giving allegiances elsewhere, abandoning posts, etc.). I think most concepts would have been expected to follow any order by their suprior officer (Donovan), but many got to "thinking for themselves" and when Donovan started making orders and tried forcing commands, people reacted and there just wasn't any control. (Of course, I could also go into the Fudal Heirarchy system vs. the "democratic" system the players are used to IRL and try putting into the current world too as an example of how Character vs. Player concepts influence play, but I won't.) I think that the fact that FH now plays in a single building in Ionia is the only reason the Havenites haven't split into outright combative factions. Even in the face of apocalyptic destruction, people still plot and plan against one another.

I think "Ogre's" betrayal of Pentag's band is an example of how even the organized group would have fallen apart after the first game as well.

Also, I think I'd like to point out that they were not playing "true" PCs. As Brad mentioned, they were coming in as 12th level characters, and I think they all realized that they were one-shot characters. I think that the sense of "accomplishment" for most players comes from the idea that they will be able to build onto their character (story wise or point wise) from one game to another. This wasn't going to happen with these characters. They really were more NPCs in the long-run and I'm surprised and glad that they at least RPed out them as characters and not just as combative mindless zombies. (Though, if they came in as PCs, they'd have to come in under normal rules, I'm sure.)

Well, I hope Wes gets the 200 +/- pictures up, or gets them to me for photoshopping. I would have loved to have gotten a picture of the whole Pentag crew in costume, but we can't always get what we want. Maybe next time get a whole "Group Pic" with GMs, PCs and NPCs all in garb too for a big photo? Eh.. who knows. Anyways, I had fun this weekend and hope others will be able to look past any problems and think the same.

Thanks to the GMs for organizing this event.
Thanks to the people who manned the kitchen
Thanks to the old woman in the house for not calling the cops on crazy fuckers in the woods yelling and swinging swords and such.

See y'all in a month! (Maybe for more pictures!)


"Come to think of it, I can't remember the last time someone got cut chopping wood... or got bit by a spider... or accidently ate a rat... not that I'm trying to incriminate myself or nuthin'!" - Heidi as the cook ghost.

Amagus wrote:Yes - I realized the extent to which Pentag and the others were being treated as PCs when you came back from your ‘scouting’ mission to their keep and revealed the issue hadn’t been forced, and thus how horribly wrong this event had gone. Had I known that before coming, I would have skipped this event. PCs tend to whine and rule-lawyer when their characters are in danger to other PCs - an ego thing. Most PvP incidents I’ve witnessed result in arguments and hard feelings that can last for months. Pit one army of PCs against another, and you’ve got a recipe for disaster.

Just a note on this: We were tired. VERY tired. Almost couldn't move tired. We were all dehydrated, had been walking all day back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, some wanted to attack, some didn't, we all would have had enough adreneline to do so. So I had a decision to make:

A) Do I attack and finish off the PCs?
B) Do I flee the area, let my people get some sleep, and let the GMs worry about getting some stuff out there to give the PCs some plots and have some fun before the night is completely over?

I chose B. Mike had "scouted" and thought (when he saw us marching) that we had chosen A so he took off back to town. However we executed B. Then the plots took over. The PCs raided what we had left in our fort. They finished up some plots, destroyed the weapon, etc. Not sure what else because I collapsed from one of the longest weeks that I have ever had between travel, overtime, more overtime, planning, then a long LARP event. Though I think A might have been interesting, I'm not so sure that I chose wrongly.

Mike, Chris, Wayne, Trevor: You guys are AWESOME GMs, the events are always VERY fun filled. However I can think of several things that could have altered the situation to have made it go much better. However, as previously stated, hindsight is always 20/20. I had 14 people who I was in charge of and had to keep entertained. There were some decisions that I could have made to have made things go better for the PCs, but I was in the dark on many things just about as much as the PCs were and it was difficult to do. So I do take some responsibility, but I am going to let the GMs (as Mike requested) take the heat for this one.

In the end: It was an experiment and it was a HUGE success. We learned ALOT. Things went poorly, but the experiement itself really showed us quite a bit. It has given me A TON of ideas for future possible encounters that the town may or may not face with Pentag. However none of them really involve anything like what we had at this event, though they are a direct result of how the event went and what it showed us.

GM_Chris wrote:The problem with the event was not the fact that there was PvP, or 2 groups pitted against each other. The problems were very subtle and very fixable. As I said in my begginning post that with the very smallest of tweeks this could have been the best event ever.

I do agree that the situation could have been altered and with the right tweaks it could have been a spot on event.

Kale wrote:4. Misconception - "They were really really powerful." I just want to clear this up really quick. If I remember correctly, I believe that most our characters were ~level 12.

Um, level 12 is a extremely high level, especially when the group is designed to synergize with each other... Conner isn't even level 12 and could kill approximately 80%+ of the PCs.

You should know well enough how powerful that is, as we had the entire town hiding for their lives with four 4th level characters...

Again, the level thing is my major gripe. If they were true PCs, they wouldn't have gotten free levels.

Dredge wrote:Well theres a reason most online games have PVP servers and non-PVP servers, and lots of ways to avoid it.

Its not everybodies bag. Honestly, I think PVP and PK are pretty selfish in LARPs. It communicates that your fun is more important than anyone elses and turns roleplaying, a cooperative adventure I like, into a competitive sport, a way for people to get some mental Enzyte and show how 'amazing' they are. I could just do competitive combat sport if I wanted that.

Ok I had to speak on this, Doyou like all your neighbors? Do you like all your co workers? Do any of those people make you mad at times? If you had the means, mentality and knew that the cops wouldn't be beationg down your dorr would you stick a knife in their back? Maybe you wouldn't but certainly alot of people would, or else there wouldn't be any violent crime. And yes, as a PC if your PC is selfish you should absolutely play that way, if your PC is one to put others before themselves then you should certainly do that, but either way don't expect everyone else to have the same opinion.

Doyou like all your neighbors? Do you like all your co workers? Do any of those people make you mad at times? If you had the means, mentality and knew that the cops wouldn't be beationg down your dorr would you stick a knife in their back?

Even we, as Pentag's loyal subjects, were manuvering and scrabbling for Pentag's favor, at the cost of his other subjects, just as the PC's fight and bicker amongst themselves. Sure, we didn't out and out kill each other, but neither would the PC's. We took our orders, but we weren't mindless, and we had opinions and disagreements with each other and our leader. I'm sure any of the other Empresses could agree with me on that.

yes number 2, yes indeed.

The number four empress agrees, too... especially considering our group had to deal with the personalities of four wives to Pentaguishine competing and in-fighting and the betrayal and defection of Ogre...

Just a note, no GM is discouraging players killing players

BTW the only bad part was the no battle.

I think both erics had very good points.

Some things that could have made the waiting time better would have been some songs. I tried to start one, but I cannot sing and I was playing a very very bad monster guy.

I think sitting around and just tellign stories and RP can be fun..even for hours and as was mentioned the evil peeps were doing alot of that between each other as they sat in their keep or walked around.

Was it the worse event to date? Yes

Was it a bad event? No, but it seems that way because we have always kept the bar very very high

PLOT TEAM RULES!

Just a note: POLYGAMY IS A HORRIBLE HORRIBLE THING.

Just thought I'd add that. I'm actually surprised that Robin made it through the event. I almost left her behind.

Kale wrote:Just a note: POLYGAMY IS A HORRIBLE HORRIBLE THING.

Just thought I'd add that. I'm actually surprised that Robin made it through the event. I almost left her behind.

I told you at lunch Sunday, consorts man, it's the only way to go.

Indira Al'Estrella wrote:There are options out there to avoid death. There are ways to come back. And there is always the opportunity to play something different. The beauty of FH is that starting over is easy. You don't have to be attached, because there is always something new.

True, but "ways to come back" is often looked at with a bit of distaste from some other players... "You weren't grown-up enough to just let your character die... it's a bit cheaty to come back, even at 0 level". I think that all players should realize that "final death" is a possibilty when playing this (or any) game and it's just one of the things you have to take into consideration (as long as it's entirely IC, and not some OOC/OOG issue). If you're unable to handle losing your character, maybe you're a little too attached to your character and should take some time away from gaming. People die, characters die... it happens. I know that there are many people, though, who if they lose their characters, they'll storm off, nearly in tears and go "I can't take this. I won't be able to play another character again. I just don't like playing this game." And, personally, those people kind of scare me... it's just a character, it's just a game.

One of the great parts of FH is that it seems to actually be built with the idea that if you die, you can be "just as powerful" in a relatively short ammount of time (a year or so worth of gaming). The only things that you don't "recover" as far as levels go are the Alliegience Points, items or favors you've acquired over your time playing that character and the likes... unlike some games where if you come back at 0 level, you'll never catch up to those who've just kept advancing with no cap or peak of "power". But I hope with the new rules, more people will understand that Final Death is more likely and not be so surprised when their character finally kicks the bucket. It's kind of sad that it took until this point for it to get to this point, but I'm glad to see it. Like I said before, I hope it doesn't make people be less interactive, but instead makes them think more wisely before acting (or makes them act before something kills them instead).