detect lie

[Wyrmwrath]

For those of us trying to be good guys

Uhm...did corbyn just infer he was trying to play a good guy? I call shenanagins on that!

[dier_cire]

In earlier times people did not have csi labs, relied on sketch testamony and believed that magic and other forces influenced their decisions.....yet they still were able to carry out justice.

Yes, and these people also had laws like "if we burn you and you die then you were innocent, sorry bout that." Is this really the justice model we want as a town? I doubt it.

As a GM, you may not agree with PCs' desire to not kill other PCs due to skill use, but that really isn't your choice. Ultimately, it's the players who make up the town laws, not the GMs. This isn't medieval times, it's fantasy, which means we don't have to stick to those boundries. We as players live in a republic and therefore (consciously or not) try to model a justice system around that. It may not be perfect but it's ours to choose.

[GM_Chris]

Im not saying you should or should not kill fellow PC's

I am saying you are using a skill as a crutch since it is the litmiss test to wether you prosecute or not.

[Claude du Sinjin]

I am saying you are using a skill as a crutch since it is the litmiss test to wether you prosecute or not

Actually Chris, there are numerous individuals ready to take action against someone regardless of the results of Detect Lie. The problem was not with the skill, it was with the inablity to keep someone dead.

What is the point of taking a firm stance against someone and their actions by killing a person when that person will be back to life an hour later and you will have permanently damaged the trust the community has in you? There is nothing to be acheived, the accused becomes a matyr and the accuser is considered reckless and dangerous.

Just as a point of fact, Claude did order the death of a member of Haven but only if the job could be done quietly and if at least immediate death was issured. So please do not simply blame detect lie as the sole reason behind peoples inaction as there are more factors involved in pursuing the punishment of evil.

[Onimaster]

Word.

[Nelkie]

Taking actions against another PC is very diffucult as described by Blondie. The game is so poitical that if one takes actions against another PC with out hard concret evidance a nasty back lash will take effect. People will start thinking they will be next, stop supporting the people who took the action, and start plotting vengence against the people. It has happened before. Detect lie helps find that concret evidiance, but is not the end all.
For example, if nuk was killed becasue it was felt she was evil and a threat to the Haven, than her entire guild would want evidiance which proves she was guilty, or war would break out. I can see that of any orginization.
I believe the reason for inaction is because of the politcal conquenses unless hard evidiance is found to convict the person which is almost impossible to find.
It is always hard to kill another PC and stay clean. Detect lie is nice to use against NPC's, but almost useless against PC's. A PC almost needs to be interogated to find the truth, but that leads to many other politcal issues if that is done.

[GM_Chris]

Well that is my point detect lie is useless against PC's

Don't you think that every character that is shady in FH or wants to get away with something first researches a way to get past detect lie?


So if even 1 person has the ability to not be affected by detect lie and you as a player base do not know who that person is then the skill becomes worthless.

Now I chatted with Vince about using this on NPC's which is nice due to time restraints. I still feel you guys just want a way to make a decision based on an absolute but any NPC that is built like a PC IE. Robert would act just like a player and figure out a way around detect lie before doing anything.

I am not against the skill so much as I am against the way it is believed. If you as a player base really want it in then that is fine as long as people understand that it is in no way an absolute..it is more like a 50-50


Oh and I dont like detect magic either because I have had witch hunters who's character background is "hate all magic" I come into town and shoot a fireball out my butt and turn people into green fairies and then I get detect magiced and when I say "no" then the person walks away instead of simply witnessing an event and "assuming" it is magic which is how I feel it should be played.

[Peace420]

Wait wait Chris did you just say that in Medieval times there was justice? HAHAHAHAHA No there was not, there was definitely punishment, sometimes doled out by the populus and not any governing body but there certainly wasn't much justice. And like a few people have made note of, I don't think you neccesarily have an accurate view of how detect lie is used. It's 1 of the tools used. You are talking about vigilante methods and not justice, Dueger killing someone because he's convinced the person is evil is not justice. In fact, during the 1 trial that actually occurred, I don't even remember being detect lied at all about anything important, you were there. Noone even tried to detect lie whether my motives for attacking you were true. Atrum could have just wanted Robert out of the way and been lying to the people present. And there is 1 HUGE element of medieval society that is not present in FH, religion. Morals and beliefs were dictated to the people by religion and how they interpreted what they read or were told by their religious leader not their own moral compass in most cases.

Now imagine if Nuk came into game next time saying she had learned to test the veracity of statements the same way Corbyn can. Does anyone really believe that they would be given the same credence that Corbyn's do by most of the populus? And thats still roleplay, Atrum STILL believes that Corbyn was lying about whether or not Kabre wanted to kill Nuk. I think you are expecting people to just act on what they think to be true and damn the consequences because that's what you say you would do,
But each person should RP the way that they want to. How long do you think a character that acted the way you say Dueger would lasts in FH, 1...2...3...4 events maybe, most people have to balance their want to do something against the possible consequences. I don't think removing detect lie will change things the way that you believe it will, all it will do is remove 1 of the factors that PC's use to make decisions about situations. At the same time removing one of the few noncombat skills that actually gets used more than every now and then. And noone can deny that there are people that are trained to be able to tell when someone is most likely lying, which the skill does. Spy isn't a hidden discipline, so it's common knowledge (IG and out) that detect lie is not always accurate.

And Taki I personally think detect lie and interrogation are actually the best deterrents for the "evil" PC's. I wholeheartedly agree with Pinkie that being an evil PC in this game is extremely hard, it takes alot more planning and creativity than it normally would, normally you just have to make sure that you don't get caught and that noone that shouldn't know what's going on does. I guess it's all in how you look at it, to me both detect lie and interrogate are ways to keep "evil" PC's in check for the most part. And the same can be said for playing an ultra good character, it's hard to do in ANY game. There will always be those moral dilemas of follow your instincts or what the evidence may show to be true. Evidence can easily be manipulated either way, to show innocence or guilt. Atrum has already proven that he's willing to kidnap someone accused of wrongdoing and get the truth of a matter out of them, if Donovan or any other character trying to play a goodie 2 shoes isn't don't blame a game skill for that, that's an inherent part of trying to be a goody 2 shoes. And really what's wrong with shady PC's getting a benefit out of 1 of 2 skills specifically designed to thwart any shadiness? If Ka and I walked into a room together and only 1 of us walked out and the other was found dead in the room, does anyone really think that detect lie would stop a trial or a conviction? Besides, righteousness is the shield that "good" guys hide behind, *cough*Crusades*cough*

No matter what the scales are still tipped to the truth coming out eventually because interrogate WILL eventually work and eventually you WILL have to tell the truth. Personally I hate that, I think there should be a point where the interrogater should either have the choice of permanently damaging the subject (either turning them into a vegetable or dead). But there isn't really a way to do that in the game without picking an arbitrary # of times that interrogation can occur. Some people's wills can be that strong that they would not break under interrogation and choose to die over giving up any information. On that note I hate the fact that you no longer have to get your hands dirty to interrogate someone, at the least it should take much much longer to interrogate someone if you aren't willing to do it the tried and true way. Psycological interrogation without any physical component has been shown to be much less effective and take much longer with the majority of subjects.

And anyone that has a problem with detect lie should have the same problem with interrogate. They are basically the same thing only one has no counter skill IG. They are both wrought with the exact same OOG problems, and have the same effect IG.

Detect magic has so many more applications than the one that you think people are RP'ing wrong. And again, I don't think that your or anyone else's interpretation of how things should be RP'd should be a valid reason for a rules change that drastic. No offense intended.

[cole45]

Quick Note, Interogation does have 1 counter. A 4th level Chieftain can resist it.

[Peace420]

Good, didn't know that. I haven't really looked over the new disciplines other than to see if they seemed balanced when introduced. It should also be noted then that you can't get both resists because of lifestyle.

[GM_Chris]

Well true my oppinnion on RP doesnt really matter..good point.

Another thing I dont like is "detect lie" and the person answers and everyone sees the answer.

I would rather it be more like.

"look into my eyes" and then hold their hands or something and then ask them questions yourself followed by using detect lie on the answer.

I would like to limit its obtrusiveness

[cole45]

It was mentioned before on little Yes/No Cards for the GMs(For detect skills). People using Detect lie could do the same thing. That way only the detect knows the truth.

[Onimaster]

Like a chip with lie on one side and truth on the other. When you detect like the target flashes one or the other.

[WayneO42]

Or, instead of requiring a phys-rep specific to the skill, we could say that the character using Detect lie must be within arms reach (Or even in contact) with the target.

[cole45]

Well, yah that would work, But if you made it a phys-rep you could use it for detect magic too.