Shadow walk and Shadow sending

[dier_cire]

I don't think it's possible to remove the necessity of ooc from the game. At least not without sacrificing some of the system. We'd have to remove assasin third level, some of the arcane and alchemy spells/potions, any monsters that could teleport, phase trhough things, burrow, fly...

As well, npcs would be limited to dying and attacking from there same location and pcs would have to lay where they died while those fighting would have fight around them. Btw, there was ooc used at the first final haven due to that alone. So I'd see ooc as a necessity for safety. "ooc I'm over here but my body is over there where people are stepping on it and killing each other."

Now whether you want to allow long term ooc with shadow walk or not is up to you. If it's quicker/instant travel (it's irrelevant as we cannot do either physically) it'll have to have ooc. If it doesn't increase travel time, and say makes the person phased, it'd still require ooc. If it does something else, well then perhaps it won't.

[Nelkie]

My vote is the people entering the portal are out of game and can not affect the real world, that includes the viewing of the real world.

Upon casting of the spell, the group who went through the portal reports to NPC camp. The NPC's decide if there was an encounter and if the people chose the proper exit tunnel. A chart would work well for this, and most any NPC could roll a die, and see if anything happened. The people waiting at NPC camp could NPC while they travel, and the waiting will simulate the time traveling through the tunnel.

And by haveing the people at NPC camp, there will be no one wondering around with there hand over their head. They will not over hear something they were not, and they are totaly out of the pitcure until they come back. Good way for the NPC to get a couple people to play monsters etc...

[GM_Chris]

Ok a few examples to make sure I understand people.

1) You and a bunch of friends decide it is time to kill Vince's character because you hate being rules by anyone. You plan for 3 months what you are going to do. You create a bunch of events so you are around Vince when the rest of town leaves. All that is in town is Vince and 1 NPC who is playing an unarmed and you KNOW has no skills what so ever. You decide it is worth the risk and get read to attack. Vince is talking to the NPC in-game, but just before you attack he needs to ask some OOG questions. (perfectly appropriate questions based on the situation..lets say sage) Right then you attack. You execute perfectly hitting vince for 500 damage before he can even get a word in. He then says..Guys come on I was OOG. From what you said you though Vince is unharmed and we must reset the scenerio. Next time you run out Vince runs away and being a runner you cant catch him.

2) Same as above, but this time you decide not to attack and Vince metagames and treats you differently than before.

3) Save as 1, but you do not attack and Vince acts like it never happened, but unfortunatly there was a guy in the woods who saw you attack. You never knew he was there and he left before he heard the explanation that Vince was OOG and we were resetting. This guy gets with his friends and they plan on taking you out and plan for 3 months. They successfully attack you in 3 months killing your group and when you ask OOG why he explains that you attacked Vince. You say that never happened.

Can you see the issues with immunity?

More examples
You are traveling OOG at night and a PC sees you and decides to follow forming an ambush for you. They attack, but you inform him sorry I am OOG in the shadow realm so you never actually saw me. Now you know OOG that PC was working on killing you.


Now you may be thinking that this is a rare occurance and I can tell you from CARPS that it happens 2-3 times an event. it is even starting to happen at FH because we as GM's have been lazy. It really needs to stop now.

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As for the teleportation spell a couple things
1) I was never going to take away the ability of it being a teleportation spell.
2) The spell has always, and will remain a dangerous spell in that you can be attacked while in the shadow realm. It has ALWAYS been that way. Teleportation spell big time scary bad.
3) All I was trying to do was to say that while in the shadow realm you still appear to the physical world. Travel is fickle so sometimes you move at great speeds and other times you do not. This allows for situations where you cannot use it to flee a PC without a GM present to narrate.

Basically I would see the narration of an ambush like this: Pc's in shadow realm are jumped by PC's. Attack starts and the shadowed PC's run with the GM present. After a small chase (enough time for the attacking PC's to understand they were shadows) the gm says "and they dissapear in a blur. Immeadeatly all atatcking stops.

Another idea which I am starting to favor is the use of special old objects that must be used for teleportation. We would supply these in certain plots. This allows us to "control" the situation better.

[dier_cire]

My thoughts on the situations (and now we have to go think of a new plan to kill Vince, thanks for blabbing ):

1) Did Vince have his hand above his head? If so then why attack him? If not, then he wasn't OOG (assuming we actually have a rule in the book). Say he did it at the last moment, then it be a gm ruling. And if he was OOG, where was his character for those 3 seconds? Currently, there is no OOG in the book, therefore he's dead.

2) I thoguht there was no metagaming in FH. Should have killed him.

3) Well, that happened to me in CARPS as Conner. Someone sent an e-mail posing as me (was really kinda ghey and a reason I don't post in game very often). Life sucks sometimes. You move on and deal (as I was told).

4) If they follow you and you are OOG, with your arm up, well, then who's fault is that? If you don't then you aren't OOG and you die.

I would hope that if we had a strict rule OOG rule (headband or hand over head or in street clothes (ie I'm carrying things to the car)) then hopefully most circumstances could be circumvented. Also perhaps if you go OOG to ask a npc a question, your pc is still there just in lala land and can still be hit for damage.

[GM_Chris]

What if you didnt see the hand.

What if a Gm isnt there and 1 person says they have a hand up the other said no.

What if they had their hand up, but since the shadow spell requires combat in the shadow realm they put their hand back down to fight.

Basically, unless absolutely nessessary I refuse to make judgement calls on OOG. That is why there is no OOG.

If you are at burger king and some dufiss wants to discuss killing Conner and you Eric overhere you may take that as if Conner heard it and deal accordingly.

[Ian_McAllister]

I know for me, I wouls very much like to see some sort of identifiable OOG marker worn by people if they are OOG..

If only for NPC's who have to walk from a fight scene somewhere back to NPC camp. What if they get met by a group of PC's walking somewhere else and all the PC's get worried and prepared when all of a sudden the NPC is like "I am OOG you don't see me".. After that happens a couple of times.. it's really bad when this happens like 2 times in a space of 15 minutes and then when you see another NPC you think." ok another OOG one".. and then that one attacks you.. I really believe there should be a worn marker that establishes an NPC as OOG and IG. It would really help in the INN as well, since it is the only central residence, it would help to know if an NPC walking through the Inn is IG or OOG.. this was a slight problem last event from what I heard.. nothing horrible but something to be looked into I believe.

I am not sure of what would be easy and noticeable for markers for IG and OOG.. but maybe someone has some ideasd.

As for the Shadow walk spell.. I just want to make sure I have this right so far.. When a sending circle is cast and you enter it, you are immediately in an ethereal realm, you then have to find another portal out.. and I assume Arcanes and maybe Empaths have the best chance of navigating this etheral realm.--
Now while in this realm you are a shadowy form in the Real world and can only be affected by magic damage, while the ethereal being cannot interact with the Real world at all.. Question- can the ethereal beings hear or able to talk to Real world beings..In the last event we were not able to verbally interact with the group lost in the ethereal realm. If so then they wouldn't make very good spys.

My 2 cents on going OOC to ask a question.. in most cases I would not see going OOC to ask a question as invulnerability.. save for instances where a character needs to inform a GM of something special before a big fight against unknown NPC's..In Case 1 of Vince being killed I would say he is dead.. if he goes OOC for a couple seconds to ask a NPC a question and has no knowledge of the attack, then I would say he is dead. If he had knowledge of the attack and went OOC to live .. then again he is dead. I do not see going OOC to ask a question in a controlled area as invulnerability at all, merely useful sometimes as in the Detect Lie, or asking a GM what I see with Detect Magic.

Sorry for the long post but finally got internet back and wanted to put in my 2 bucks.. hehe.

[dier_cire]

If you don't see the hand, then you don't see it. If they were legally OOG, then you made a bad call. It's like me running up and attacking you if you were dressed as the master but you weren't there. I'm dumb.

If the PCs are unable to come to an argeement, that's what GMs are for. If it's one on one, you'd have to side with whomever was more believable. It's up to the GM to resolve those.

Now as for the shadow walk, if we had it as per Aaron's suggestion, this wouldn't be an issue since Shadow walk combat would be held away from PCs.

Making judgement calls on OOG shouldn't be done, but OOG does need to exist, otherwise next person using pass wall just dies as they physically do the walk. NPCs couldn't do the "oh, I'm not really here" as they prepare for an attack. Just too many reasons to list. A hard ruling of no OOG just isn't possible. What if someone gets physically wounded (ie smacks head on two trees as he falls off a small cliff)? As they stumble back to the Inn, with no OOG, I could still kill them...

[GM_Chris]

YOu talked about NPC's being OOG. This what I was talking about us being lazy. We should as NPC's be out of game for very long. If we have to walk back then we walk back as peasants not OOG.

The only time we HAVE to go OG is when we get up after bing killed.

Well last event shadow walking people could still hear they were just not allowed to talk to anyone inside or out of the realm.

[Audry]

I've played a game where someone could go into another realm.... as good roll players people had to ACT like they couldn't see them, unless they were in that realm or had sight into it with a spell.

PC's knew to disreguard them because they had a hunter orange headband that they wore until they came back. They could be hit with magic but only by those who knew they were there, they could not deal damage to anything outside that realm. They were not always alone, or safe there.

Just an idea....

I'm not sure about the entry or exit of teleport.

I don't like the idea of being out of game at all.... I mean if all I had to do was put my fist to my head 2 seconds before I was attacked????? that's stupid IF there is anyone OOG it should be made very Clear....talking to an NPC should not be an excuse not to take damage, you should always be paying attention to what is going on around you.... that's My Opinion (and I know everyone's got one)

[Kalphoenix]

I don't know about other folks, but I don't consider OOG as making me safe from damage. An NPC could come running up and I ask what I see, but s/he is still wacking at me, and I would consider this acceptable, as long as I still knew what I was seeing. This wasn't usually a big deal anyways, since the GM or NPC in question usually gave a description before being asked. In the situations I remember specifically, it worked better, since we were in a cave and it was a low light situation, we wouldn't have seen what exactly was there right away anyways.

I just consider OOG as being a way to say something out of character. I haven't seen anyone abuse it...I figure we're all mature enough that that isn't going to be a problem. If I ask "What do I see?" it's not Delayne asking, it's me as a player. I would imagine that the good roleplayers who make up FH know how to seperate OOC and IC, although, yes, things happen and that's no excuse for someone to get upset when someone mentions OOC that they are going to assasinate a certain character to someone and the information gets back to the target, who then anticipates the attack.

I believe this has already been said, but unless there is a way to represent everything exactly as it appears (Which is pretty much impossible in a fantasy setting) there is a need for OOG to exist.

As for the Shadowwalk thing, I liked what Audry said about headbands or something else that is easily noticable (Like a colored sash) for while they are walking around shadowed-out, or having the chance of an encounter while they are "waiting" at the npc camp, like an angry etherial being or something.

Then there comes the problem of who should be able to "see" them. Should everyone be able to easily see a shadowformed person? Also, what if someone "Ambushes" someone when they are in shadow form? They would still have to tell them OOC that they weren't able to be hit anyways. I would assume someone in Shadowform looks different than someone not in the shadowrealm. A marker would be great. Eg: *PC is wearing an orange headband* = "PC looks shadowy and translucent." Your PC might not know what shadowform is, but they would know that the person looks different.

Anyways, my 2 cents and I hope none of this sounded insulting, I didn't mean for any of it to.

[Ravinal]

I like the headband idea, yet it's the same problem as the white sashes that we had last game. There were no white sashes, unless you count Hannah's toilet paper sash. If we have about 20 people going in we need 20 headbands. I have no problem if someone wants to make a crapload of headbands and store them with the GM's stuff. I just wonder if it will be done. Heh.....I can help if needs be. Don't know how well.

I also need to say that I have been guilty of o.o.g. invulnerablity. At the keep battle, last year, something happened which happened several times that game and for games after that. I was pulled to the side by a npc,
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npc or gm: "Stop for a second....."

me: "yeah?"

npc or gm: "How are you doing 5 crush so many times. Don't you have to have a headed weapon to do that?"

me: "No....Im a druid. It's my master druid ablity."

npc or gm: "Oh okay...."
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As I said this happened several times throughout the game. Except one time in particular, at the keep one npc told me to stop and come over to the side and out of combat. He asked me how I was doing the 5 crush; as I told him one of the other npcs came around the corner and hit me for 15 magic. I was clearly away from combat, standing straight up*not normal for ravinal*, hand over head, sword down, and speaking calmly. The npc that hit me with that later was angry at me saying I needed to take it. I didn't agree. It didn't seem fair for someone to tell me to stop and come over and then I get hit....as they were oog at the time. *should I dodge and weave out of the way as Im being asked a question from GMs from now on?* I apologize if the rule is now that and was always no oog. And I was suppose to take it. If that is the case, Ravinal can be dead and have been retroactively dead for a long time and I can either stop playing or make a new character now..........there....rant done for that past situation.

The main problem I see with this is that some people wish to believe that there is a possiblity of never having oog. I would love that, yet as I and others have said before, it's quite needed for game mechanics. The hand over head rule isn't in the rule book, but several things aren't in the rulebook that are still being used to this day. *I wonder if coming up to a GM and whispering to them is in the rulebook.* The shadow walk spells have been handled quite well as far as I have seen up to now. As has been said, it has always been that travel is strange in them and it is possible to become lost in them. A threat that has been over the PCs heads for a long while now. Adding the ablity to damage PCs in that realm doesn't bother me as much as this debate/arguement about oog invulnerablity. It implies that everyone will use that as a immature way out of damage and I see that most of us are adults and can deal appropriately with the situation.

Most of us see our own character's as precious to ourselves. So I can see the possiblity of preservation as a motivation for using quick oog as a way out. Yet, the need for it is just as important.

Example of strange situation: X GM wants player dead and doesn't want to be blamed for it. X GM calls PC over while knowing that other PCs are waiting to kill him. GM asks question....no oog......PC dead. Does this seem at all fair? Not that the circumstances ever happen, but the situational positioning of it could.

My point in this part of my rebuttal of the debate is to state that I am trying to see both sides of this debate and am trying to brainstorm a solution. As many people are. I just am hoping for the good of the game everyone is trying to be openminded; rather than 'only' trying to prove how right they are and how wrong everyone else is. Im not saying anyone is doing this, yet appearances have seemed that way.

I hope what I said makes sense *for I have been on serious amounts of sleep dep. lately* and wasn't too harsh, for that is not what I would hope to display.

[GM_Chris]

The GM should probably not have stopped the dramatic flow of combat to ask you the question, but waited until after combat.

In all honestly I would rather all questions be addressed at NPC camp where I can make a person clearly OOG.

I am trying to nip in the butt a problem that is beginning. We are already starting to gte complaints that should never exist if we simply were as hardcore as we were the first event. I am not advocating that we should be lame and never go OOG because we are all friendly and I want to keep that but we are deffinitly back sliding and this spell does not help matters.

Now some of you may not see this, but trust me I see it happening and I really dont want to make the same mistake we made at CARPS

[Peace420]

The orange headbands have traditionally meant that you do not see what you see, that the actual visage is different, not neccesarily anything that would affect mechanics. For instance, the disguise skill uses an orange headband and different clothing (if at all possible) to represent that you do not see their PC's visage but something different. There has to be some way to represent that, at the Frostfell event I was wearing ears, a blue shirt, grey pants, a blue cape, chainmail and was speaking like a Vulcan, I still got many people calling me Atrum when they first saw me because they saw the only 6'3" black man on the field approaching. The point is that there is only so much that can be done to represent what is seen or happens in a LARP so I think that OOG should definitely exist, it almost has to for some of the abilities and spells and such. But I do think that OOG should NOT be invulnerability.

In the situation that LeRoi was describing I wouldn't have taken the damage either, I've always been of the opinion that GM's and NPC's should voice any mechanics questions AFTER a fight. GM's and NPC's constantly pointing out that an effect or damage should be taken by a PC is annoying as hell to me and detracts from the game as much as an Ipod would and if a GM is going to pull me out of a combat to ask a mechanics question then other NPC's shouldn't be able to harm you while you are trying to explain something to them. BUT PC's attacking is something completely different. And if an NPC is part of the plot to assasinate someone I would hope that the NPC was convinced IG to help and not OOG because they want the character dead. I would also hope that people, especially NPC's wouldn't try and lure someone to an area with OOG remarks or questions, if that happens then that would be something that would need to be taken to the GM's. Basically, there should be no invulnerability for pvp actions while OOG. As far as passwall, you already just have to trust that the players that see you passing through the wall are not going to metagame you being there unless they can see you once you lower your hand, you just have to trust that they aren't going to go ape shit on you when you walk in with your hand over your head and proceed to where you will appear. If they do, tough luck, talk to them about it after game off or at some point when you are alone with them.

Basically I would see the narration of an ambush like this: Pc's in shadow realm are jumped by PC's. Attack starts and the shadowed PC's run with the GM present. After a small chase (enough time for the attacking PC's to understand they were shadows) the gm says "and they dissapear in a blur. Immeadeatly all atatcking stops.

I left my decoder ring at home, but it sounds like you're saying that a GM would decide when the PC's disappear? I really don't like that, it lends itself to favoritism, not that I'm accusing you guys of anything like that but when the oh too obvious possibility is there it will be percieved that way. "How come it took us 2 minutes to fade, this time, the last time it only took us one minute, if it had been one minute this time my character would still be alive!!"

[GM_Chris]

Good point on the favortism.

And just to comment Leroy should not have taken the damage in that situation. My goal is to limit those situations and others like that as much as possible, and honestly it is hard to do that with a spell like shadow send/walk. (and passwall)

[Nelkie]

I have issues with being able to view and listen to the real world while in the shadow relm.

How do you play that you are a shadow and weapons just pass through you. Every time you are hit, you would have to say, the weapons pass through me, and have a group of people saying that during a battle takes away from the game.
What is stopping a group of PC's going into the shadow relam and becoming shadows to act like decoys in the front line of a battle. How in the world would an NPC know a certain PC is in the shadow relam, not taking damage from their weapon. You feasbly could have a shadow wall and the NPC warriors would attack them doing no damage to the shadows with normal weapons while their friends kill the NPC's.
Again, can a shadow pass through walls? If so, they make great spies. If not, than they can't go into buildings that are shut. Can you hear while being a shadow? There is nothing saying you can write in the shadow realm and show it to someone. I just plain don't like the idea of PC's having the ability to be immune to normal damage so easly.
I know there are many more ways to exploit being a shadow, I just haven't though of them yet.
I say, keep it simple, once you go into the portal, your character is at the whim of the NPC's and you need to go to NPC camp to await your fate.

By the way, Head bands and sashs are hard to see at night and are easly over looked. A hand or weapon over the head is a great way of saying you are out of game.

I say you are in game unless there is a specific reason why one is out of game. I say you are still in game when a PC has to ask an NPC a question when dealing with an ability (Sage, detect lie, etc). If you have a non ability question, go to NPC camp to ask the question out of game, or ask the question to the NPC but consider yourself still in game.

Examples why a PC is out of game
an abilty (Pass Wall), spell, etc
safety reasons
An NPC needs to talk with you privately about something