Chris, I'm not saying you're stupid, but that you don't pay attention. Take your last post for example. You say you want to change my idea and put the chip draw part in surgery. Go read my page 3 post. Ngative chip draws are in surgery. That was actually discussed and moved by you and myself about 6 monthes ago. As well, you mention that anyone can heal someone in negatives as long as a surgeon is around. Nowhere in my write up does it say that. In fact, it says exactly the opposite.
And ultimately, Aiden, what you are missing is that while a change to mystic heal does correct the problem, it doesn't address any future skills that may follow the same path, which is why we want to change the healing rules. As for potions, you can only use two in negatives. If it was done differently at WH, then it was done wrong.
As for -9 and up being clunky. Think of it this way. A surgeon is needed to do a heart transplant. However, a much less trained person can do the stitches after he's done. Same surgery but once the person is brought to a certain point, the surgeon may hand off to another to finish the work.
List of Suggested Rule Changes
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Ok lets say I do not understand so let me ask this question:Surgery (add in):
A surgeon may heal someone at -10 or more. A chip must be drawn at every -10 divisible mark healed (ie 1 at -10, 2 at -20, 3 at -30, etc).
Lets say a person is at negative 30.
Surgen heals 10. First aid heals 3. Does the chip draw happen before or after this healing?
Next
Person is at negative 30
I mystic heal 20 points and First aid 3 points and then use two potions a 3 and a 4.
can I do this? When does the chip draw come in?
Now as for paying attention. I do not believe you are paying attention. I will guess that we are saying exactly the same thing.
Where you say every -10 there needs to be a chip draw I say there needs to be a chip draw to heal 1 or 5 or 10 depending on where we set it. Why are you getting upset over this small word difference?
Now the second thing we are arguning about is leathality. I believe strongly that IF we are going to make a change then we need to make the break point at -10. You want the break point at -20.
Why do you feel that it is such an issue that the players can bring a person back from -wahtever without a chip draw? If I want to increase leathality I can simply make killing blows on people. I do not know if I mind people comming back from -whatever which means there is no problem. There is nothing to fix.
Even if we decide on something here I want the player base to vote on it because I do not see it as a big deal. You seem to not understand that I do not see it as a big deal. Infact since there is currently no GM vote sitting in the Gm section and no GM discussion on this issue I do not belive that any GM finds this a critical issue so please do not think I am somehow your road block.
That said you are awesome is findging problems. I appreciate your effort greatly which is evident to the amout of things we have asked you to look at. I even identify that there is a problem, but as I mention just unsure if it is worthy to make a change that will cause the player base to grumble at yet another change.
Chris
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
ok, now these questions I can answer.
someone at -30: Surgery is performed. one chip is drawn. First aid is performed (must be performed by the surgeon since person is still below -9, as only a suregeon may heal below that mark. It's part of the skill). A chip is drawn.
someone at -30 using mystic heal: If you are a surgeon and have 21 life (or have potions to fuel yourself) and are either a druid or paladin, then yes. The person will still draw chips, same as the above example, but they would be healed.
As for the number affixed to the chip draw deal, my issue is the desire to keep the single life point per chip, then allow a potion (the current system). This system is complex to change (since it requires looking at alchemy or re-writing). Mine is simple (you change the number of life points that may be healed between each chip draw).
I don't care what the break point is for chip draws. I wrote -20 as a starting point. That's it. This number could easily be changed to -10, or -30, or -200. Again, I point to the flexiablity of the system I wrote. Changing 3 numbers can change the entire feel of the system without having to re-write the rest of it.
Also, I have no issue with someone coming back from -whatever with no chip draw. The problem is the ease with which we can do it. When you can bring someone back from -100 with 16 cure 1s and only two people, it's a problem. If someone blows some hefty potions and has some special skill combos, then fine.
As for player grumbling, we grumble about everything, regardless if it's good or not. I didn't do this for just the players. I did it to protect all of us from ourselves in the future. You will add another healing skill in the future or someone will come up with a cool spell idea. Someone will forget to plug a hole. Someone will find it and we'll be right back here. This system plugs the hole ahead of time.
The main things I'd like to see:
- a cap of life that someone that isn't a master healer can heal. You could even add in a healer skill to advanced to move that number back if you so wished. (ie the more medical training you have the further you could heal). This blocks skill combos like alchemy and mystic heal.
- A hard number where chips begin being drawn. Currently this number is soft and this makes it so the chip bag is easily avoided. Making this a hard number, makes it harder to avoid but still avoidable.
- A hard number on the rate at which chips are drawn. Again, currently this number is soft (tied to potions) which makes it awkward in that the number of chips drawn is entirely based on the potions on hand. A hard number allows for more or less to be healed per chip, and lets you change this number over time to increase or decrease lethality.
someone at -30: Surgery is performed. one chip is drawn. First aid is performed (must be performed by the surgeon since person is still below -9, as only a suregeon may heal below that mark. It's part of the skill). A chip is drawn.
someone at -30 using mystic heal: If you are a surgeon and have 21 life (or have potions to fuel yourself) and are either a druid or paladin, then yes. The person will still draw chips, same as the above example, but they would be healed.
As for the number affixed to the chip draw deal, my issue is the desire to keep the single life point per chip, then allow a potion (the current system). This system is complex to change (since it requires looking at alchemy or re-writing). Mine is simple (you change the number of life points that may be healed between each chip draw).
I don't care what the break point is for chip draws. I wrote -20 as a starting point. That's it. This number could easily be changed to -10, or -30, or -200. Again, I point to the flexiablity of the system I wrote. Changing 3 numbers can change the entire feel of the system without having to re-write the rest of it.
Also, I have no issue with someone coming back from -whatever with no chip draw. The problem is the ease with which we can do it. When you can bring someone back from -100 with 16 cure 1s and only two people, it's a problem. If someone blows some hefty potions and has some special skill combos, then fine.
As for player grumbling, we grumble about everything, regardless if it's good or not. I didn't do this for just the players. I did it to protect all of us from ourselves in the future. You will add another healing skill in the future or someone will come up with a cool spell idea. Someone will forget to plug a hole. Someone will find it and we'll be right back here. This system plugs the hole ahead of time.
The main things I'd like to see:
- a cap of life that someone that isn't a master healer can heal. You could even add in a healer skill to advanced to move that number back if you so wished. (ie the more medical training you have the further you could heal). This blocks skill combos like alchemy and mystic heal.
- A hard number where chips begin being drawn. Currently this number is soft and this makes it so the chip bag is easily avoided. Making this a hard number, makes it harder to avoid but still avoidable.
- A hard number on the rate at which chips are drawn. Again, currently this number is soft (tied to potions) which makes it awkward in that the number of chips drawn is entirely based on the potions on hand. A hard number allows for more or less to be healed per chip, and lets you change this number over time to increase or decrease lethality.
My posts in no way reflect that of anyone else nor are they in any way official.
I do not understand this sentenceAs for the number affixed to the chip draw deal, my issue is the desire to keep the single life point per chip, then allow a potion (the current system). This system is complex to change (since it requires looking at alchemy or re-writing). Mine is simple (you change the number of life points that may be healed between each chip draw).
Please explain how 2 people with 16 cure 1 potions heal to -100
From what I can tell we nearly completely agree since you do not care about where I put the cap. The only thing we dissagree on is that you want to have 1 LP healed per chip, plus 1 chip drawn per each -10 life.
I on the other hand want 5 to 10 HP healed per chip draw and I want to add in a 5 count or maybe longer to drink a potion.
But as I said I am unsure if 2 people with 16 cure 1 potions healing from -100 is an issue even if I do not understand how that can be done. Why is it not a big deal? Well, if we wanted the person to die I could have stopped ebating on them and instead just killing blowed them.
The best you could do is 10 from surgery plus 2 for first aid, plus 20 for mysitc heal plus 16 for potions which is 47. Then you have to do chip draws which at its best add in another 16.
Chris
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
For the part you don't understand:
You know how the system works now. Say you want to increase or decrease the number of chip draws when healing a given life total. This is kinda tough now since there is no hard cap on anything. One chip is somewhere between 1 and 8 life healed. You cannot affect the low end without over powering the high end (by increasing life per chip). Increasing the high end is easy as you create a more powerful potion, but this is now changing alchemy which is sort of counterintuitive to changing healing. In my system, one chip allows for 10 more life. This number can be changed easily since there is no variable. Does that help (I totally understand if it doesn't)?
Also, note, in my system, a chip does not heal any life on it's own. It merely allows you to continue. It's just a symbol of the delicate work being done and chance of failure.
As for how you heal from -100, you forget that when using Mystic heal, you never give the patient potions (this is a common mistake even done by those with mystic heal). You give the mystic healer the potions and then they heal the patient, thereby bypassing the 2 potion limit. It is possible to get +5 life from one cure 1 potion (hmm, having trouble remembering the last +1). So you now have 10 + 3 + 80 + 7 (from the mystic's own life). If it's only +4 from the potion, it's 20 cure 1s. Again, changing a skill to prevent this is not a good route to go since it's clunky at best and the next skill introduced into game that heals could easily re-open the hole. The hard cap and the x life healed = 1 chip drawn prevent this without those issues reoccuring.
As for the 5 count per potion, I don't care one way or another. Adding it in has little to no effect on the system since you can keep someone alive in negatives for up to 8 minutes anyway (a tsunotaur warrior + extend + first aid + surgery). Throw in chip draws and you get more.
You know how the system works now. Say you want to increase or decrease the number of chip draws when healing a given life total. This is kinda tough now since there is no hard cap on anything. One chip is somewhere between 1 and 8 life healed. You cannot affect the low end without over powering the high end (by increasing life per chip). Increasing the high end is easy as you create a more powerful potion, but this is now changing alchemy which is sort of counterintuitive to changing healing. In my system, one chip allows for 10 more life. This number can be changed easily since there is no variable. Does that help (I totally understand if it doesn't)?
Also, note, in my system, a chip does not heal any life on it's own. It merely allows you to continue. It's just a symbol of the delicate work being done and chance of failure.
As for how you heal from -100, you forget that when using Mystic heal, you never give the patient potions (this is a common mistake even done by those with mystic heal). You give the mystic healer the potions and then they heal the patient, thereby bypassing the 2 potion limit. It is possible to get +5 life from one cure 1 potion (hmm, having trouble remembering the last +1). So you now have 10 + 3 + 80 + 7 (from the mystic's own life). If it's only +4 from the potion, it's 20 cure 1s. Again, changing a skill to prevent this is not a good route to go since it's clunky at best and the next skill introduced into game that heals could easily re-open the hole. The hard cap and the x life healed = 1 chip drawn prevent this without those issues reoccuring.
As for the 5 count per potion, I don't care one way or another. Adding it in has little to no effect on the system since you can keep someone alive in negatives for up to 8 minutes anyway (a tsunotaur warrior + extend + first aid + surgery). Throw in chip draws and you get more.
My posts in no way reflect that of anyone else nor are they in any way official.
You are confused on something.
I was saying have a hard cap at -10 life. At this point the only skill that can be used is surgery. Each chip drawn heals 10 life up to 0 life. This means if they are at -11 life they could heal 10 which brings them to -1 then draw a chip and heal the extra 1.
Now lets say we need to stop at -9.
Well now the person would need to be at -20 before we would see a chip draw.
In the second example my cap has been moved to -20 which I believe is too high to warrent any change to the rules.
Another change I really think needs done though is that you cannot perform multiple actions on a person at the same time. If you are in surgery you are not mystic healing or drinking potions. If you are extending life you are not drinking potions. Extend life, as I remember was only to be used to get the healer time to get back over to heal them not as a mechanism to heal with potions and such. Perhaps all we need to say is that you cannot use extend life with any type of healing then remove the 2 potion rule and add in a 5 count to drink the potion.
I was saying have a hard cap at -10 life. At this point the only skill that can be used is surgery. Each chip drawn heals 10 life up to 0 life. This means if they are at -11 life they could heal 10 which brings them to -1 then draw a chip and heal the extra 1.
Now lets say we need to stop at -9.
Well now the person would need to be at -20 before we would see a chip draw.
In the second example my cap has been moved to -20 which I believe is too high to warrent any change to the rules.
Another change I really think needs done though is that you cannot perform multiple actions on a person at the same time. If you are in surgery you are not mystic healing or drinking potions. If you are extending life you are not drinking potions. Extend life, as I remember was only to be used to get the healer time to get back over to heal them not as a mechanism to heal with potions and such. Perhaps all we need to say is that you cannot use extend life with any type of healing then remove the 2 potion rule and add in a 5 count to drink the potion.
Chris
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
I think we should go with -9 to max life, anyone can heal with any combination of skills, potions, spells, etc.
Below -10, the only skill that can be used is surgery. Potions CANNOT be used unless otherwise stated on the potion. Surgery heals 10 points plus 10 per chip drawn. Takes one minute in between each chip draw. If the surgery is interupted, the patient dies. Patient stops bleeding to death once surgery is started. If surgery does not bring the patient above -9, the patient dies. The patient starts bleeding to death again once the surgery is ended if they are above -9 but not yet at zero.
This system seems to be simple, has minimal rule changes, and is close to both eric and chris' systems.
Below -10, the only skill that can be used is surgery. Potions CANNOT be used unless otherwise stated on the potion. Surgery heals 10 points plus 10 per chip drawn. Takes one minute in between each chip draw. If the surgery is interupted, the patient dies. Patient stops bleeding to death once surgery is started. If surgery does not bring the patient above -9, the patient dies. The patient starts bleeding to death again once the surgery is ended if they are above -9 but not yet at zero.
This system seems to be simple, has minimal rule changes, and is close to both eric and chris' systems.
Wayne O
The Game Master Lite
Frag the weak, Hurdle the dead!
The Game Master Lite
Frag the weak, Hurdle the dead!
huh? When did we start talking about your system? Last I knew, we were comparing mine versus current. I am confused.
Let's just take one thing at a time, if that's ok? We can look at your idea next. Again, the three funadmental points (from two posts ago) are all I care about.
The change to prevent other actions while using exend and the like is ok, but even then why do we really care how many potions are used? If you have 200 cure 4s and want to use them, great. I'd rather see the chip bag be the factor in whether that works, not the fact that there is some hard rule saying you can't get enough potions down them (be that 2 or 200). The red chip is the same idea (you screwed up or failed to get them down his gut fast enough) but with more drama. Walking up and saying "what are you at?" then doing the math and saying "sorry dude, we'll slit your throat so we can res you now" has no drama since you know ahead of time if it'll work or not.
Also, this change is mostly reactionary which is a bad position to start from. Don't get me wrong, I like the 5 count idea, but only to prevent the positive life binge deal. Holding 40 tags and "drinking" them in one gulp is dumb. Not for anything to do with healing though.
Let's just take one thing at a time, if that's ok? We can look at your idea next. Again, the three funadmental points (from two posts ago) are all I care about.
The change to prevent other actions while using exend and the like is ok, but even then why do we really care how many potions are used? If you have 200 cure 4s and want to use them, great. I'd rather see the chip bag be the factor in whether that works, not the fact that there is some hard rule saying you can't get enough potions down them (be that 2 or 200). The red chip is the same idea (you screwed up or failed to get them down his gut fast enough) but with more drama. Walking up and saying "what are you at?" then doing the math and saying "sorry dude, we'll slit your throat so we can res you now" has no drama since you know ahead of time if it'll work or not.
Also, this change is mostly reactionary which is a bad position to start from. Don't get me wrong, I like the 5 count idea, but only to prevent the positive life binge deal. Holding 40 tags and "drinking" them in one gulp is dumb. Not for anything to do with healing though.
My posts in no way reflect that of anyone else nor are they in any way official.
I could go with Wayne's suggestion. It has the three elements and those three are easily adjusted. I'd prefer the surgeon only with he or she able to use a variety of skills/potions deal (because I like forcing combos and the organized group people working together to save someone) but I could be cool with only surgery.
My posts in no way reflect that of anyone else nor are they in any way official.
My understanding of Wayne's is no potions past -9, which would include chip draws. ie a surgeon heals 10 life, then 10 more for each chip. That's it. Pretty simple and straight forward.
And yeah, 3 surgeons. But that's only for chip draws.
And yeah, 3 surgeons. But that's only for chip draws.
My posts in no way reflect that of anyone else nor are they in any way official.
Yes. I agree with Eric, its a chance to shore up a system that is destined for further breaks and loop holes if left status quo.Wayne do you feel we need the change?
Exactly. No potions past -9 period. Unless, the potion specifically says it can be used beyond -9. I am thinking we may want to make a potion that heals a few points below -9 but just make it cost one mystic per point healed and cap it at 10. So, an alchemist could have a single potion that heals someone from -10 to 0 but it would cost 2 and a half mystic resources to produce, be level 4, and require a hefty brew time.My understanding of Wayne's is no potions past -9, which would include chip draws. ie a surgeon heals 10 life, then 10 more for each chip. That's it. Pretty simple and straight forward.
Just so everyone knows though that if we go witht his rule we are saying that we want a 10% chance of failure for those 1-2 times an event a person gets over -20.
If there is a surgeon around. So, lets assume that 90% of all negative life is in the -1 to -19 range. As it is now, there are several ways for a non-healer to bring them out of the negatives. Potions, mystic heal, etc. With the proposed rule, only a healer with surgery can bring them back regardless of potions or other skills. That makes things a little more scarey. There arent a whole lot of healers around. Now you need to find one in less than a minute to heal your buddy who is bleeding to death. You may have a handful of potions but he is beyond that......Drama!
We could always axe the first 10 points of healing is free thing and make every surgery require a chip draw but I think that may get too nasty and it is nice to have something the surgeon can do without a chip bag.
Wayne O
The Game Master Lite
Frag the weak, Hurdle the dead!
The Game Master Lite
Frag the weak, Hurdle the dead!
And the nice thing is, that next year or the year after when these values need to be adjusted (and they most likely will) it's easy as you only change the amount the surgeon heals before requiring a chip and/or change the amount of life each chip heals and/or the amount of life anyone can heal.
My posts in no way reflect that of anyone else nor are they in any way official.