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What you could do is show several groups from each race, all with different outlooks. (and even then just various groups, not a dominating whole.)

Dark elves vs moon elves, the two tsunataur groups etc.
It would be fun to pair the same race with several different outlooks.

Thats exactly why I would rather not include it at all. Each person who creates a new backstory that breaks the mold adds something new to the game. If we had laid everything out at the begining the Pheonix Guard may not even exist. Dwarves come from the mountains and hate dark elves, dark elves are sneaky and dont like high elves, high elves think humans are too nosey, humans think guthries are too nosey. etc. etc.

The Pheonix went with another tact and an entire new world was born. New ideas. Thats what makes FH great. It breaks the mold. I dont like trying to smash it back into a mold when it doesnt need to be.

A 'GM's' History of how the races used to interact, and I highlight 'used' to, that people can access only if they wish is a much better idea. Its what we based everything on to begin with. Its the reason we have examples of Orc Empaths and Elven Warriors in the rule book. It challenges preconcieved notions.

Taki, I total agree with what you are saying. This has been a very interesting conversation. But isn't there basic morals that would fall into Good and Evil?

Moral marks of a Good person
1. Treasues life, Kills only in defense of oneself or those they are protecting
2. Does not steal
3. Does not lie
4. Try's to help those in need

Evil
1. Kills for benfit, greed, or just for the fun of it
2. Lies to gain a benfit or for the fun
3. Steals to gain what they want instead of working for it
4. Desitcrates the dead

Now this is simplistic, but make my point that there are some basic morals that can deemed good and evil.

Any 'hard-coded' rules on good and evil only limit the game.

Good: "Treasures Life, Kills only in defense of oneself or those they are protecting."

This makes cultures involving honor duels or 'might makes right' phylosophies evil. These cultures do not consider killing for reasons other than defense evil.

Bad: 'Kills for benefit, greed, or just for the fun of it.'

This makes mercenarys (or folks like Ka) evil. It's just business for mercs - they don't consider it evil. Killing is just what Ka does best - I doubt he considers it evil.

Bad: 'Desicrates the Dead'

This makes necromancers (duh) and some tribal practices evil - heck, it makes an entire discipline evil. Some tribes probably even consider such actions as good and necessary. So there is no global moral compass, merely shared social mores that vary from society to society.

Putting global declarations like this into the game mechanics is as bad as the Hatred Merit in CARPS - it only succeeds in limiting the game. Because of hatreds, Goblins and Dark Elves had to be removed as Player Races - vastly limiting the options of PCs.

Now, placing such limitations into game via RP is another matter. Governments are all about placing limitations and restrictions on their populace. Limitations imposed through RP are done through character and society development, and are PC controlled. The PCs have imposed the limits - the game, itself, remains open. The PCs are capable of taking the game in any direction they want depending on the social mores developed.

"We have implemented a law, and that law states that you will be punished if you are this kind of person or perform that kind of act." = good limitation

"Because I am a Dwarf and you are of that race or have performed that action, the game rules state that I must kill you." = bad limitation.

I agree with everything doug just said.

Of course, if you are writing the description of a specific area in Phantarra, you can include just those sorts of things.

I would never want Morals writen into the rule book or into the mechanics. I agree the morals should be PC driven.

Sounds like I'm mostly in the same boat as Doug and Todd on this.

Thanks, and by no means am I implying that medieval society was an efficient, fair, or good thing. It was, however, operational at a very base level. A person could usually figure out what was expected of them and what behaviors would or would not be tolerated.

You are very welcome. Good point here, by the way.

On undefined absolutes:

The good news? At least it makes for some interesting conversation.

And interesting roleplaying.

Amagus wrote:Any 'hard-coded' rules on good and evil only limit the game.

This maybe true but I do think each player has their absolutes as far as what is evil and what is not.....If they didn't there would be no "passion" and not very much good roll play.... if you "get along" with everyone how much fun would that be??? Seek first to understand and then to be understood. But on the same note characters with similar views of good and evil, will band together more easily than those with differing views...like the dwarves and their honor.

Shea knows killing is wrong however if you are fighting for crown and country that's a different matter....you are safeguarding something you value and therefore need to defend with your life.....

For my entire time playing CARPS, I think only one necromancer was ever killed, and he was a low level PC... (Balthos doesn't count as some tool raised him and he was a vampire). The rest of us all escaped unharmed and lived many days in Elthinar scott free as no one could "prove" we were doing anything bad, or they were scared of the power (Narnian). lol. So I don't think pre-cataclysm really had it in for necromancers, it was all just some "good guy" ploy to get rid of the competition since they were getting their arses kicked.

I was skimming this and came across this post from a long time ago... but it's inaccurate

The "good guys" at Carps actively tried to take down every necro we were aware of. I was the one to finish off Narnian completely, and I killed more than a few necromancers. But the necros did hide pretty well. You can bet if I saw someone casting a necromantic spell right in front of me I would have had no problem in attacking them... and I think most townspeople were the same way.

Post-cataclysm... I haven't been playing haven long enough to comment... but OOG i was surprised that there was a seemingly open necro in town. In-game, my character is new and doesn't interest himself in necromancy, nor did he care to ask too many questions about it.

Now... as far as drawing up a general list of what each race considers good or evil... I think it's a good idea just as long as it isn't expected of the PC of that race to follow it.

I agree with whoever wrote the comment about RPG's and LARP characters becoming "superfriends" and being tolerant of all other races. Real community and societal interaction is rife with those who harbor biases and stereotypes. I would argue that a chaotic environment such as post-cataclysm would only further heighten those stereotypes. We see this in Iraq and in other places where chaos has become entrenched... people often split along ethnic lines and a civil war ensues.

But that being said, we saw that at CARPS, repeatedly, people simply would not play their Elf or whatever race they happened to be as having any type of bias. Their characters always seemed to be "the exception" to that rule. I personally think that racial stereotypes in RP enrich the game... because, however unfortunately, that's how the real world operates and it is part of basic human psychology. My character at CARPS considered himself a "good" person and was generally tolerant of other races, but he held some very deeply racist beliefs about Dark Elves. If he saw one, it died.. no matter where it came from or whether it was in reality a "good" creature. Part of what makes a GOOD role-playing experience and the creation of a good character, IMHO, are the logical fallabilities and hypocrisies all people have... and part of what makes us what we are is our backgrounds and our culture... and what values that background has instilled in us, whether we are aware of them or not.

Anyway. My whole point is that I think racial identies of what is Good and Evil as well as stereotypes and biases, should be known to players. But should not be expected to be enforced. I personally think that the better players with three dimensional characters will make use of them in helping to create a complex psychology. However I don't think that they should be expected to be followed by PCs because for whatever reason, whether legitamite or not, people simply won't, and we should be pragmatic about that.

Garion wrote:I was skimming this and came across this post from a long time ago... but it's inaccurate

The "good guys" at Carps actively tried to take down every necro we were aware of. I was the one to finish off Narnian completely, and I killed more than a few necromancers. But the necros did hide pretty well. You can bet if I saw someone casting a necromantic spell right in front of me I would have had no problem in attacking them... and I think most townspeople were the same way.

Well, I left before Narian was finally finished off, least I believe, and no one stopped any of the rest of us (though you did "try" heh. The cast from your minor was an awesome attempt, if fatally flawed). And you probably did see necro spells cast, just never knew it. I used them in combat.