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I will say this...

A new setting has already been attempted. Somewhat recently I might add.

There was a shift in setting, but it was not NEW in the manner the GMS seem to be planning this time. The Wildlands was still affiliated with Haven and the Witchwood, the new one does not seem to include that possibility. If it did there would not be skill chances to accommodate the new settings rules.

A third option of forced retirement would be great as well. This helps make the transition easier.

Stealing SOME of a players levels and goodies is no different than stealing them all. If they feel an item is broken....fix THAT item, don't punish other players that do NOT have broken items.

I like the idea of people starting new characters, as it really is needed

Under no circumstances is forcing people to make new PCs ever NEEDED, unless we are no longer going to be playing Haven and are now playing Beyond the Stars.....but that would have the same effect as just making everyone start at level one...

I also feel players SHOULD start new characters, half way was done before with the jump to the wildlands and it FAILED, it wicked FAILED, like epic amounts of FAIL. that needs to NEVER happen again.

That feeling of yours is, fairly obviously, due to choices made by PCs that feel they cannot enter town again due to whom they tried to kill....or some such similar bad in game decision. There are many players that like the new setting, even if there are many that do not.

I also feel that all magic items really need to come out of the game if once again we are going with a new thing, they break the game and really should probably just not exist, all efforts to curb there power have failed.

Good thing that this isn't not EVER likely to happen in a fantasy setting where magic items are part of the genre like light sabers are in Star Wars. There is also no logical basis for their removal, for better planning when adding powerful ones...maybe...sure. A compete removal is just silly.

and player levels should be curbed in some way, we have mostly just super high level characters at this point because the game punished low levels and had no GOOD retirement system so everyone sits on the same character for years on end, doing nothing but amassing wealth and power.

The game rules system has never punished new players....other players choice to play abusive PCs is what has punished them. There are currently about 12 new players I could list that started in the last year that do not feel punished. Then again the abusive PCs haven't been around much or at all in that time.....

as a high level player that has a 3 inch stack of resources, lots of money, and over a dozen magic items including resist sleep and resist magic items. I would support this.

I way say its the manner you acquired those resources and items that punished low level characters...not the system...

it would make the game fun again, it would be nice to have a new fresh start.

again, the game is fun. I have always had fun, because I play to ROLE PLAY...not stick jockey and new PC carjack. Even the event other PCs tried killing mine was a blast...because I play for the reason every player SHOULD LARP....to enjoy the experience of the PCs life...the ups...the downs...the FULL story. Playing to JUST be the heroes is setting yourself up for failure as even the hero experiences bad...

Not every player may see that the game is still fun because of choices that player had their PC make, but really it is. Come to the last event this year and see...

I guess I'll add my two cents...voting option 1! I'd prefer to keep my characters, items and other misc stuff just because I've invested so much money into a character as well as time.

As for option 2: I don't fully understand any of the gripe people have towards wanting a complete restart. Maybe because I've only been around a short while and have heavily encouraged new players through Sanctuary to play and join world.

However excluding the cost and time put into my 2 characters already, I have no problem rewriting and starting new characters as I think it's really easy to level up and be a character worthwhile pretty quickly. Within a few games or sooner if you can afford to buy a level each game most characters can do some pretty cool things.

As for dynamics in game...it seems like life to me to have weak characters and those mega powerful. I don't hold that against anyone as I feel many earned it through years of playing, luck, or really exceptional roleplaying. It'd be sad to see all that dedication and hard work for those things down the drain for those people. Plus, I take it as a personal challenge to get that awesome as soon as possible and like to watch everyone who is that great at roleplaying so I can learn and also one day be wicked awesome. #roleplayinggoals #supercompetitive

My gripe is that option two is akin to taking the manuscript an author has worked years on and shredding it simply because its easier than fixing the perceived mistakes the staff has made with items placed in game, and because there are now authors that have only been adding stuff to the story for a few months who feel sad because their story isn't as long or as in-depth and they feel its unfair for people who have working longer on their story..to have a longer story...

This isn't the first LARP where new players feel...over shadowed by older PCs...its in fact simply a fact of joining long after the game started. The players that gripe about it blame the staff for not making all things equal...even though all things should Never be equal...since that NEVER exists in the real world.

I say this now....with one of the highest level PCS, just like I did when I first played him. If a PC feels excluded, it is because of choices that player has made. I know several higher level PCs that love working with the new players, I know Kaylan does. Doing so is what allows me to sit my ass in the inn so much, and the PCs I work with are paid well with coin, resources and items.

A full reset is nothing more than stealing all the work the players have done to craft the PCs persona and life...period. Might it be easier for the staff, sure. Will it make the game better. Not a chance. Will we lose players...GOOD players?? Without a doubt.

Zeira wrote:I will say this...

A new setting has already been attempted. Somewhat recently I might add.

A third option of forced retirement would be great as well. This minimizes the drama of old (If that is really a concern) and allows you to balance out things a bit better, especially in the magic item department. Those who had things that were cool will still have cool stuff, maybe not as broken, but the edge is they get still helpful. Even better, it can be something perfect for your character. Something neat. We can even create different "retirement packages"

Level 1-5 - 2 Levels, 2 Gold, 3 Potions.
Level 6-10 - 4 Levels, 4 Gold, 6 Potions, Crafted Item of your Choice
Level 11-20 - 6 Levels, 6 Gold, 8 Potions, Minor Magic Item
Level 21-30 - 8 Levels, 6 Gold, 10 Potions, Crafted Item and Minor Magic Item
Level 31-50 - 10 Levels, 8 Gold, 10 Potions, Crafted Item and Medium Magic Item.
Level 51+ - 12 Levels, 10 Gold, 10 Potions, 2 Crafted Items and Major Magic Item

This helps make the transition easier.

I like Kiel's option 3. (As much as I hate the idea of losing everything I have from all my years and what I gave the game.)

I haven't voted yet (as of this post) because I don't know if I truly support either option fully.
It is a brand new game. It's not "Final Haven v2" or "Winter Haven v2", we're looking at a brand new game with a new setting and so forth.

Option 1 means that those folks who've invested in costume/levels can continue to get their money's worth, whether they keep the PC, or build a new one with the same levels. However, it also means folks keeping their old characters will bring the same baggage from one story into another. PCs with power will retain it and it'll just be a continuation... same game, different name.

Option 2 means that everyone starts at the same place, mechanically speaking at least, but it still means that a PCs RP baggage can follow them, or be used to influence the game (of course, it'll be up to the PCs to decide if they care to listen/care since there wouldn't be anything to back that up.)

However... I do kinda like the idea of everyone forcing everyone to make new characters, either at full-levels, or even half-level of their old primary/trade-in character. You don't get the cool stuff equipment, but you at least get some of the value you put into it. However, I still see issues along this too--those who had power were likely of higher level and still makes it difficult for newer characters to meet up to them.

As Quen was JUST starting to get somewhere with his "story" after 12 years, it'd be very tough to see him go away, but I would be able to build a new character and play it regardless.
I guess it may be helpful to think of this not as a "reset" but as a brand new game to join and play. If players go to another game (Nero, Waypoint, Shattered Realms, etc.) you don't get to transfer levels and equipment either. When you make a new character for a D&D game, you don't tell the GM "Well, our last campaign was great and lasted a decade, so now I want to start this new game with the same character/levels" as if you were entitled to it.
Again, the selfish side of me says "keep it going so that I can continue playing this PC I've just started to figure out", while the other side says "Make this a brand new game completely."

So, for now, I'll withhold my vote until I'm persuaded differently.

It is a brand new game. It's not "Final Haven v2" or "Winter Haven v2", we're looking at a brand new game with a new setting and so forth.

Option 2 means that everyone starts at the same place, mechanically speaking at least

I would in fact JUST be a new setting. The staff has mentioned minor skill changes due to changes in military and holdings, but that's it. The physics that rune the game world and power magic and skills will be the same. Even is we aren't on the same planet that Haven and Witchwood were/are...its the same game in a new setting. The proof of this is...in either case the PCs will be able to keep all past memories even if they are stripped of individual power. Groups that were little better than brigands before...will be the same after they are downgraded to level one, groups that were working for the better good will still be doing so. the only difference will be what such groups can throw at each other. Since its been common to see more selfish brigand groups than good guy groups, scrapping levels and items simply means MORE relative power for those PCs that live by feeding off other PCs.

PCs with power will retain it and it'll just be a continuation... same game, different name.

Not entirely accurate. The potency of levels and magic items would remain, but the economic clout of most everyone is about to shift radically, and that is a major change in how the inter PC dynamics will be determined.

However... I do kinda like the idea of forcing everyone to make new characters, either at full-levels, or even half-level of their old primary/trade-in character.

The problem with that is no one has to make a new PC...this is the staff asking if we should keep the PCs as they are, or strip them of levels and in game items....they mentioned nothing of a forced retirement. I could still make a level 1 Kaylan, or Troy a level one Pear An with the second option....with all memories intact.

those who had power were likely of higher level and still makes it difficult for newer characters to meet up to them.

so then its your view that we should be forced to reset ever 5 years or so, just so that the players that have only been playing two years don't feel overshadowed by PCs that have been playing five???? when does that stop???

If players go to another game (Nero, Waypoint, Shattered Realms, etc.) you don't get to transfer levels and equipment either.

While the items do not transfer, PC history can and often does. So does group cohesion if that is what the players chose to do. Yet even under those circumstances....the people already playing in the new game...are not reset to level one or zero just because the new players don't like being weaker....that's all option two is.

Regardless of which option is chosen, the Haven game is going to continue to struggle. Whoever will be running the combined games needs to take a long hard look at why the Haven games went from a 40-60 player average per event, to a 10-15 player average. I can tell you that it isnt the economy, military, or holding mechanics.

I deleted a couple of posts because we have gotten off track. For the record, I don't believe Brian is bullying anyone but rather just having a conversation. At no point here do I believe he has crossed a line.

We have taken a player hit but it is not as severe as you have suggested Panderus. That said, if you have an understanding as to why we have had a decline, we would love to hear it. Telling us why we haven't had a decline in no way helps us fix anything. Everyone on staff is committed to running a quality game and I at least think are responsive to feedback. Thanks everyone who has voted and voiced their two cents so far!

agree with Art and Panderus.

and Mike, how many people, specifically PC's, were at the last FH event? I know you guys have the numbers.

I don't have the numbers off hand actually but it was low: 18-20 range. Our average for the year though would be in the 30-35 range.

I vote option 1

FYI I think the options were supposed to be more along the line of.

A) forced retirement at about 50% levels and items/wealth
or
B) keep your current character but start at level 1 with nothing.

to encourage people to start a new character but if you just had to keep your current character THAT BADLY you could albeit it a cost, but original option A is fairly in line with other ideas that people have come up with and wanted to see.

Unless I misunderstood the conversation, forced retirement was never an option being considered.

Ark wrote:FYI I think the options were supposed to be more along the line of.

A) forced retirement at about 50% levels and items/wealth
or
B) keep your current character but start at level 1 with nothing.

to encourage people to start a new character but if you just had to keep your current character THAT BADLY you could albeit it a cost, but original option A is fairly in line with other ideas that people have come up with and wanted to see.

I like this with one small tweak.

From my experience (which is limited), we seem to have a lot of new players. We could cut levels above a certain cap (maybe 10?) to keep everyone at level 10 or lower going into the reset. I'm sure there's an easy way to explain this in-game, and would operate as a good middle point.

scylus wrote:

Ark wrote:FYI I think the options were supposed to be more along the line of.

A) forced retirement at about 50% levels and items/wealth
or
B) keep your current character but start at level 1 with nothing.

to encourage people to start a new character but if you just had to keep your current character THAT BADLY you could albeit it a cost, but original option A is fairly in line with other ideas that people have come up with and wanted to see.

I like this with one small tweak.

From my experience (which is limited), we seem to have a lot of new players. We could cut levels above a certain cap (maybe 10?) to keep everyone at level 10 or lower going into the reset. I'm sure there's an easy way to explain this in-game, and would operate as a good middle point.

I would not mind something like that, at the end of the day the effect is fairly similar, percentage cuts like the retirement system already disproportionately effect higher level players then low level. a level 2 player loosing half their levels can make it back in one event, a level 100 player loosing half their levels requires 50 events (unless they P2W)

also keep in mind the 50% retirement was supposed to be special for this particular occasion as normal retirement is 25% (far too low IMO)