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I was thinking about this as I try to understand hidden arguments lost in translation.

I feel that we are talking about the fairness of opportunity over the fairness of having. What I mean is in FH everyone has the same knowledge of hidden things and everyone has the same opportunity to acquire hidden things, but not everyone HAS hidden things.

We do not have a cheat book that many video games have that says "go to cave A, kill monster B, get item C, nor will will, but perhaps if we made it more clear what players can do to get hidden things? Would this help alleviate frustration?

No, it only alleviates frustration for people who are really into fairness of rules if everyone knows what is out there so they know whether it balances or if it is creating an unfair advantage.

I totally get that argument. I'm not convinvced knowing everything that is obtainable creates the most fun for the most people, but I get why it frustrates some.

Now if we demonstrated in the past that we were perfect every time we introduced a new skill or ability and that it always balanced well, then there would be a little less frustation (though it would still be there for some). Since we've been doing this for nearly 20 years, I think we get it right more than we don't, but no one's perfect and that applies doubly for us

I didn't explain myself well...go figure...I am talking about having players talk about the type of things they did to get something so people have a general idea how to go about getting something hidden. I am not in favor of creating a list of hidden items, especially since each one tends to be tailored toward a particular need.

If that is not clear then I will just have to destroy you later.

You explained yourself perfectly well. I was saying that would not help alleviate frustration. If that is not clear, I will eviscerate you at some unexpected time in the not too distant future...

thanks Mike, edited mine as well.

second: RP for stuff
I did GM a larp for some time, i let people get away with far more then they should have by simply RP for stuff, they changed how an entire event played out within the first 5 min because instead of dealing with troubles on the island they sold themselves into slavery to get on a slaver ship and escape.
RP beats mechanics everytime, and if someone starts spewing mechanics when im RP a scene ill drop them to 1 life and continue.

third: hidden things
I have talked about this with GM's in private.
hidden items - as long as there ballanced im fine
hidden races - is pure RP also fine with
hidden potions/spells - as long as there ballanced or one shot im fine.
hidden things that give constant mechanical benfits ie paths/disciplines, ESPECIALLY ones with skills found in no other discipline in the game. i am not okay with, i dont care what RP you did.

Just a warning to everyone, this is not a forum for personal attacks. I have deleted what I consider to be an unnecessary and inflammatory post, a post that was fine but only referenced that post, and I edited the last post that referenced the inflammatory post so that there is now no mention of it at all. Let's keep it peaceful.

dont really mean to bring it back up but i didnt want to start a new thread.

my problem was not really with hidden things in general (potions, items, races, etc.) but only with the disciplines. however i do understand why people would like them to exist, and why the GM's like them too.

I would like to add though, that if we contine to have hidden disciplines that it be made clear in the rule book that they exist. right now there is no mention at all, even something like "there may be some out there that people are unaware of, go find them!" would be nice.

not an obvious "go here, talk to him, get discipline, etc" but at least something in the rule book that gives any new person a hint that there is something more out there would be nice.

I line that states" these are the paths and disciplines available at character creation, other MAY be found in game" might suffice.

Not a bad idea at all..good suggestions both of you