FinalHavenLarp.com

so no one agrees that lv.4 +1 weapon is pointless for warriors now

I'm not even saying fours are a good thing I agree whatever get rid of it, but don't make it worse but let us keep it, its like a once good limb that is useless now just amputate it, 4 is op but having a +1 passive skill that doesn't stack with another +1 passive skill is useless for a master warrior switch out, it makes it two easy for master warriors to swing three's.

I could be wrong but I don't see to many warriors with armies behind them, maybe a few. how is this a largely usefull skil, these skills are useful for very specific characters. its kind of repitative that warriors have two troop related skills like battle tactics and noble reputation, seems a little redundant especially for characters that are supposed to fight.

I have both of these skills. I'll agree that Battle Tactics leaves something to be desired. Noble Reputation is a great skill for someone who is looking to have some political clout...or have the ability to call in some thugs on the cheap.

Weapon focus is still a VERY good ability. It is the only skill that allows you to increase your damage while duel wielding as well as while using a shield while still able to use skills such as Defensive Matrix and Parry. Yeah, if you have both they don't stack...but both abilities are optional. Take one or take the other.

while this is not a comment about the change, its about the ruleing in general.

this is now the only skill in game that can be made completly useless if you have both skills. its not even a case of one gives you another option, its a case of if you have both, you have a useless skill.

i know the response is dont take it and what not, however when a game has useless skills its a sign of bad design, so hopefully a more permanant fix will be created

EDIT: think i found an idea worth exploring.

W. Spec + W. Focus = W. Mastery

when you gain both skills for one weapon they dont stack but. . .

"through your long time use and understanding of the sword (can be any weapon) you have learned how to use it in ways the common warrior has not. you can now spend 15 seconds to swing 5 vorpal (or crush for blunt, etc.)
skills required - W. Spec, W. Focus
skills replaced - W. Spec

now if you only have one or the other you get the base effects, wich by themselves are okay. if you get them both you dont have a useless skill but another option in combat

Actually Use Shield is useless if you have both skills. This one is slightly more useful than that in that you can get +1 with multiple types of weapons.

Just sayin

huh. . .i forgot about that one. . .2 times gives you press?

i get the two types of weapons but i dont think that is really a boon merriting master level skills. 95% of people use swords, unless:

-the rules say the cant (weapon focuses and the like.)

-personal reasons (RP, Prefer staff, prefer axe, etc.)

im almost 99% sure that nobody has ever been screwed because they didnt have the right weapon to go with whatever focus they were using.

Basic healing. And mass healing don't stack and the difference is minor. That being you can't mass heal at 0.

Resist magic doesn't stack either.

GM_Chris wrote: Duel wield since the beginning of the game has had an armor restrction so normalizing captain is a correction of an oversight.

That.

I personally feel a lot of the rule changes in general have been about normalizing/standardizing abilities. The alchemist/arcane changes, for example, were HUGE and it hugely messed up most people's characters. BUT it was a necessary evil...Alchemist and Arcane worked nothing like the rest of the disciplines and had to be "standardized."

I understand the need to vent. I was pretty pissed about the "mystic heal" nerf years ago, to the point that I felt it was useless and I still don't take it anymore to this day. But you still have a lot of options. If you have a level 4 +1 to weapon skill, you can either not take WS as warrior (with the H&V expansion, you have other choices) or not take that level 4 WS and use the 40 points on something else. It doesn't make the +1 damage "useless" for either warrior or the disciplines with a damage boost. There are warriors who DON'T take the disciplines that end in a damage boost, and there are people who take the disciplines who aren't warriors.

I don't have a problem with the damage min/maxing (Or anything else), BUT the game has to be structured around balancing it for people who DO.

I don't find the captain level 1 ability weak. It increases your personal income and as you level and have a higher income, it gets better. Am I mistaking it for something else or are you? I'd pick that over level 1 diplomat (read/write) ANY day of the week. It affects you regardless of whether people are giving you anything or not...

Although I haven't been a super active player this last season, I'm actually in an opposite boat from Chris (Although I don't have a HUGE issue with his "no armor" suggestion)...I get nervous when I see the damage calls start creeping back up like they do every few big rule proposals. When you can easily one-shot someone with a normal weapon swing (Such as privilaged folks who are a baseline 4 if they have no path/disc bonuses, I THINK) I find that problematic.

(Note: I am not involved in voting or board rule discussions, these are just my personal opinions).

And this is driving me crazy. WHY IS IT A USELESS SKILL? You have the option to take something else. It's not a bad game design. A bad game design would be saying you are forced to take both with no other options AND they don't stack (There used to be quite a few skills that worked that way for YEARS). It's not a bad game design just because you don't get to pick how it works. The implication being taken here is that only Warrior/Weapon skill Disciplines exist. I know it's hard to imagine when you like to play min/max style , but there ARE other combos. There are (and have been) non-warrior knights and warrior bureaucrats. There are Sage/Pikemen. And so on, and so forth.

No one likes being nerfed. But it's inevitable and necessary to keep the game balanced in an organic play environment.

I don't think we're all understanding Altearez correctly.

I believe he means that the lvl. 4 +1 skills are useless because now any warrior of any lifestyle can wield 3's and not have the restriction of finding and buying into a Discipline that needed to be required in previous rules to do the same.

I dont get why +1 WF skills couldn't have stacked? 4's isn't so bad. it was with a single blade and no shield anyway, The Warrior in question already sacrifices a huge defensive point for that.

The restriction to 3's no longer matters when you can get it almost anwhere now. The options a warrior has are very slim by comparison, either +2 for 3's as a master warrior with rage and a single weapon, or deal with 2's and be able to use a shield and drop it for 3's. Other options include going Rogue and taking knight and dualing 2's for way more damage then a warrior could ever dish with 1 weapon and 3's.

Jack of all tades is another option if you want that same last build but need dual wield to make a 90 pt. discipline stronger then a 150 pt. path.

Regaurding Rogue and the Balenced blade curved blade they'd need dual wield, a decent amount of Money for the blades, and a free basic path. But you risk now dealing with disruption. BTW, DPS is a myth by definition, because it assumes that players are infact Dummies being struck.

Rogues were never ment to be warriors, so why try and direct people that way to make up for their loss of base damage? Give them 4's back because the sole purpose of what they are, fighters/tanks(offensive or defensive, because there IS an option). The point was, that a warrior was ment for constant combat, where Rogues were ment to pop in and out with powerful strikes, What happened there to cripple that system?
Ah yes, they lost the key to that path, 4's. The pt. and Gold equivalent of a master Rogues 14 with the right equipment, Now that made a balence, not the skills and base damage they're getting now.
We both pay for how strong we get, Warriors with a full discipline given the Old rules, and Rogues with the money to pay for the toy's we need to get the ball rolling.

Armor utiliztion, would be a good switch for warriors including Noble reputation, just so they get an offensive and defensive option, but put a restriction to either one or the other, weapon or armor. Just dont leave them with just 1 truely useful switchout for each tier of Warrior.

Use shield-ok
use bow-ok
last stand- YOU DIE!!!!! um....? is this really worth it?

Crush-1 for 1unblockable (surge)
Battle tactics-gets ride of enchantments so nobody wants to listen anyway.

Noble rep.-only people who give a care switch 4 it, and it's not even a regularly useful skill like most switch out in h/v expansion.
+1 single weapon focus- examine...SINGLE WEAPON, DOESN'T stack with other disciplines so you cant synergize your points, and you have to rage now to get 3's.

only half of these are usefull in an average event, if that even.

Sorry to make this sooooo long but I had A LOT to say about Everyones Perception of "Balence." I think that word is like love now, People just say it and nobody knows what it really means....

Rogue and taking knight and dualing 2's for way more damage then a warrior could ever dish with 1 weapon and 3's

Regardless of whether or not a character uses one or two weapons at the same time, they still will average two hits per second, as the damage call must be clear in order for the strike to be effective. This idea polices itself. I promise you, a warrior swinging base 2s far out damages even the most prepared rogue.

I believe he means that the lvl. 4 +1 skills are useless because now any warrior of any lifestyle can wield 3's and not have the restriction of finding and buying into a Discipline that needed to be required in previous rules to do the same.

This idea has come up multiple times so far in this thread, so I'm going to squash the idea right now. A skill that gives you +1 to damage is NOT useless because it give you +1 to damage. The only time it might not work is if you already have a skill that gives you +1 damage.

There are 7 skills in the game that raise base (ie continuous) damage in the game, and the Warrior has access to two of them without touching a discipline.

On a personal note I believe that (mechanically speaking) the warrior path is the most overpowered in the game as a whole. It was before the rule change, it was after the rule change, and it still is now. Taking this away does make it much better, but it's still got a long way to go to balance with other paths.

What he said.

On another note, most of the people here DECADES of experience balancing games. This is not to say you are wrong, just that what some of us see is different.

We also have access to character sheets. We know how many warriors with fours really were out there. additionally even if ZERO people take a broken skill that doesn't mean its not broken.

your logic states that there would be more rogues than warriors now, but character sheets prove otherwise no matter how many YOU counted. (I however can SEE THEM ALL.) did rogue come up in numbers? YES. was that the POINT? yes. are there more than warriors? NO. Still more warriors than rogues.

As far as bad design, you have to actively TAKE weapon specialization. So the fact it does not stack is moot. it was not intended to stack. Warrior only had fours, and this was just correcting an oversight just like captain.

Lastly, my opinion is just that, and I don't get to vote on the rules. My suggestions are only that.

We should all use this brainpower that we have assembled here to come up with some new idea's for 4th level Seer...Suggestions? I thought of having an ability that allowed you to speak with the dead, takes 15 minutes spend one permenant LP to be able to summon a dead persons memories, ask one question. The process would increase the chip draw of for resurection by 1. The LP loss lasts for an event. No body required.

I am aware that this can make it more difficult to PVP. That's kind of the point, it requires people to have to do more than just chop up the body. It makes the Amnesia potion more usefull. It adds a new dynamic to the game.

Thoughts?

wow that was an awesome segway!

Idle hands are the devils plaything. Part of the original concern was the loss of Seer's Sleep. I'm actually diverting us back to the original concern.

seer skill. . . .sounds good


. . .what? i can agree sometimes

magic sleep with a fist. simple there are enough resist magics and resist sleeps combined to balance out seer having magic sleep, same charge time 60 sec. just a thought.

random point

master warrior weapon focus is redundant, its not very versatile to have 2 skills that give us +1 with only one weapon.