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GM_Chris wrote:Its not total

What you as the player is going to get out of this deal is event by event updates on your research instead of asking for something and then month after month you hear nothing followed by we will get to it.

This should of NEVER been happening. A simple, " you feel it will take more time," as feedback for the research always seems to work. That's just you guys dropping the ball between events. Also if what the player wants is crazy, "try as you might, you feel this will never work the way you intended." I've also seen out of game explanations on research sheets - "This would be a mechanic breaking." Which is fine too.

I also think we created a culture where if a person researches something you expect you will get something eventually so what has been happening is we get a research request like:

"I want a 3rd level spell that does damage" and then we the GM's have spent hours trying to come up with a new spell.

Then give them an existing [\b] 3rd level spell that does damage. With lack of specifics you can do that.. and it might be wasted research on their end for being dumb.

Unfortunatly it will cost you a little cash most likely (helps the economy)

WHAT?!?! I can understand if you're going to grease a few palms to get what you want... IF... IF That's the kind of character you're playing.. maybe blow a few magic components.. but if so, that stuff should be IN GAME and not out of game/between events and ONLY if they are for a plot.

And not every research idea means you are going to hurt someone or yourself. What it means is you have to test this stuff out which means if you are comming up with a spell that hurts someone then I need to know how it is being tested. If you are working on an immunity potion then you would have to drink it and then get hit. The purpse is so we as GM's can grow the RP of the world not somehow make you come to the event missing an arm.

I would like to direct you to a great thread on the WH site. It's some awesome forum roleplaying by Eric Stark of his character doing research.

http://www.winterhavenlarp.com/phpbb3/v ... f=10&t=946

I can see possible bonuses to doing this sort of thing, but by no means I feel we should penalize people who don't.

But also what if I'm not as good of a roleplayer as Bob? What if I don't have as good of a writing style? Will my research outcome reflect this?

Implimenting a novel cost to the system, which makes sense (no where does it state its free), will help curtail frivilous research while giving you something else to spend money on.

Two things here..

1) It's been asked of my character to give all monies to Esmerelda so the town can (and I can) survive.

2) You're right.. it's not free... I believe I did pay for research... I SPENT CHARACTER POINTS BUYING THE DAMN THING!!

Zydana wrote:Two things here..

1) It's been asked of my character to give all monies to Esmerelda so the town can (and I can) survive.

2) You're right.. it's not free... I believe I did pay for research... I SPENT CHARACTER POINTS BUYING THE DAMN THING!!

+1

I have, nor do I want to have (a roleplaying thing), little to no need for cash money. Paying for research would be near impossible for me to do, and if this is implimented, would ask for a minor rewrite to swap out research for another skill (NOT my first choice).

This rule change could possible cripple existing characters if it is not complete prior to it's initiation.

It's not a rule change as there are no rules governing between event research at all.

As for the other complaints let me ask a question using the following example.

Your character wants to research a spell. The spell requires magic components in order to cast. You are not sure how many so you guess.

Do you think your guess was right? If not were the components consumed in the attempt.

This is R&D, there is always cost in R&D it is the way things go. You attempt and fail a bunch of times and then you are successful. I know how much money is out there and so I know this is not even that big a deal as the cost will be based on what you are attempting to research and that cost will most likely be a few components and maybe even your own plot come game on!

As I am typing I keep thinking of the word balance that was used to describe research. Ok I would like the those number cruncher PC's to do me a favor.

Is it balanced that you can combo a 4th level discipline with a 20 point skill to gain an infinite amount of additional 4th level abilities with no added cost.

Example 1: Take any arcane or potion that gives say a resist. Then you turn that resist into a perm magic item and stick it into your pocket. You just gained an additional skill through using your research skill. Please pray tell what other skill in game allows a character that much power.

Example 2: I create a dicipline that has just 1 4th level skill and no skills 1-3. The 4th level event allows me to absorb permenatly 1 skill I see every event or possible every other event if it is difficult. The down side is I have to pay 1 mystic ukeep per level of each skill I absorb. Failure to pay means I loose that skill for that event. How many would love this discipline?

Example two sounds like magic items almost. I mean at least the some of the ones I have seen in game. You would be like a person who gets a magic item of your choice every event except you can choose the item and it can't be stolen. That sounds bad as far as too much power but at the same time it would be cool to see someone do it and kind of use roleplay to explain it...hmm. Like a golem that mimics the actions around him but can't use the abilities unless he has enough power. The powers would be like programs they have to assimilate. Cool...

I know it's kind of off topic but my mind wanders

GM_Chris wrote:

This rule change could possible cripple existing characters if it is not complete prior to it's initiation.

It's not a rule change as there are no rules governing between event research at all.

Yes, there are. By precident. Charging money breaks precident in the sccope of what, 6, 8 years of game. Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, call it a rules change. I'm not saying that's bad (if it's determimed that it is needed), but it needs to be treated like a change, as many PC's will have to change how they do things to accomidate this.

GM_Chris wrote: Is it balanced that you can combo a 4th level discipline with a 20 point skill to gain an infinite amount of additional 4th level abilities with no added cost.

If you're saying there is currently no cost to research (20 point skill) a way to recreate other 4th level abilities using a 4th level discipline (4th level arcane), the you are right. But you can't use them without paying a cost, namely the material components of the spell, determined by the GM's at spell creation. So your quote as writen, interprited by me, cannot be done currently anyway.

GM_Chris wrote:Example 1: Take any arcane or potion that gives say a resist. Then you turn that resist into a perm magic item and stick it into your pocket. You just gained an additional skill through using your research skill. Please pray tell what other skill in game allows a character that much power.

How do you go from "one use potion, needing components to make each one" to "perm magic item" without further research and possible approval/rejection by the GM's?

First I spoke to Mike and he thinks there is a little confusion over what I m saying.

Not all research will cost. For example: I want to research the plot of the missing thumb. This would cost you nothing unless we pointed you to a person to talk to in game and then in game that person wanted cash for the info.

The cost will be based on what components/materials a spell/potion/crafted item is going to cost and how many times you fail. Chance of failure is the piece I am working on currently which is kind of delaying me getting back to people.

So if a spell in the end is going to cost 2 magic components and you say fail once. You would still get the spell next event instead of waiting, but you will pay say 1 or 2 magic components which symbolize the cost in trying to figure out the spell/potion/crafted item which is realistic and helps balance a skil which is most likely broken.

So to balance the potential of Researched Spells or Alchemy, that may mimic a high level skill, a monetary cost will be added to the research. This is the balancing factor?

Why not get rid of any Spells or Alchemy that mimic skills?
Why not disallow any of the same?

I knew I should not have added the balancing thing in as it would give people a topic to argue about.

Honestly it is really more about a realism facotor I want to add to the game. It just feels right that there should be a cost.

Have you thought about using time as the 'expense' for Research? Instead of coin you could have time be the factor.

Say a minimum time of 1 Event per level of Spell.

Just a thought.

I guess I really dont understand why coin is such an aversion.

Would people really prefer say 1 event per level?

I say give me this event comming up and if people do not like what I am doing then I will entertain that.

Personally I would rather pay the money and have my research between 1 event with a possible custom plot instead of waiting for a year for my 4th level spell and no plot, but what ever the player base enjoys more is fine with me.

GM_Chris wrote:

This rule change could possible cripple existing characters if it is not complete prior to it's initiation.

It's not a rule change as there are no rules governing between event research at all.

As for the other complaints let me ask a question using the following example.

Your character wants to research a spell. The spell requires magic components in order to cast. You are not sure how many so you guess.

Do you think your guess was right? If not were the components consumed in the attempt.

This is R&D, there is always cost in R&D it is the way things go. You attempt and fail a bunch of times and then you are successful. I know how much money is out there and so I know this is not even that big a deal as the cost will be based on what you are attempting to research and that cost will most likely be a few components and maybe even your own plot come game on!

As I am typing I keep thinking of the word balance that was used to describe research. Ok I would like the those number cruncher PC's to do me a favor.

Is it balanced that you can combo a 4th level discipline with a 20 point skill to gain an infinite amount of additional 4th level abilities with no added cost.

Example 1: Take any arcane or potion that gives say a resist. Then you turn that resist into a perm magic item and stick it into your pocket. You just gained an additional skill through using your research skill. Please pray tell what other skill in game allows a character that much power.

Example 2: I create a dicipline that has just 1 4th level skill and no skills 1-3. The 4th level event allows me to absorb permenatly 1 skill I see every event or possible every other event if it is difficult. The down side is I have to pay 1 mystic ukeep per level of each skill I absorb. Failure to pay means I loose that skill for that event. How many would love this discipline?

Coin is an aversion because some people, either in or out of game simply don't want to deal with that aspect of the game and they shouldn't be forced to. If someone wants to come out, sit in the Inn and just talk with people IG they may never need a weapon or to remember any of their combat skills, life or armor. AND coin is even easier to hoard than stuff was.

So scale back magic items like people have been asking for years because BOTH of those sound like craftsman as it is right now. Spells cost time to cast and you can have one on you at a time, if you choose wrong, too damn bad you have another 5 minutes before you can choose correctly IF you have the right spell in your book and if you have your book with you. Most likely you're either dead or captured and not casting a spell anyway 5+ minutes later. A potion, you're limited both by how many you can make, they can be stolen or lost, they sometimes have a cost associated with them already (same with spells) and you are limited to one at a time. All the potions that give you more than 1 or 2 low level things, kinda like sage, take your skills away.

Meanwhile EVERYONE else has 4 different skills that they can use, some as much as they want every 5-30 seconds at 0 cost or possibly instantly with a life point. So stop trying to compare it to having 1 skill or an abundance of 4th level skills because that ain't how it works at all.

There is R&D to healing too, unless someone else is teaching you over several years and even then you have cadavers of all the different races and animals you'll need to use for practice. You're taking too much of real life and applying it to research. The game doesn't need to be a sim or make everything like a sim.

I also don't understand why there HAS to be some money expenditure for research to work like it was supposed to from the start. I stopped researching things years and years ago because I wasn't Colin and got frustrated that I had to prod to get anything at all but somehow he had a new high level potion every event. Not to be a dick but research has NEVER been handled like it should so you ask if we would rather have a bogus system that penalizes people in a different way or status quo that was at best sketchy. How about doing research like it should have been from the start, a GM guideline set out as to how long things would take and what needed to be submitted for anything to be returned and go from there. The reason you get research like "I want a spell to blow stuff up" is because there has NEVER been anything that spelled out what research should entail. And yes I would FAR rather have it take at least 1 event per level with other mitigating factors like level of researcher and number of people working together. Some low level things have taken more than 2 events and a couple times reminding it was submitted for it to come back before so it's not like that would be any different, except now we might actually have a point where we can say OK it's been longer than it should where is my research response. I STILL have a problem getting info back on research all the time, and not just potion research because I quit doing that years ago.

I also don't understand why tying research to a plot HAS to be tied to money, I originally thought Herb was introduced YEARS ago as a way to do research IG or to get new potions IG and was waiting for the craftsman and arcane equivalents. Sadly that wasn't the case. I know you guys are creative enough to come up with ways to introduce an IG component to research without tying money to it.

After listening to all of the opions, some of which were quite passionate, both public and private, I believe the only viable solution is to remove research all together from the game. The only reason it is in the game is for the players who have now made it quite clear that the old way of doing things was horrible and the new way is far worse. If only I could go back in time and reclaim the countless hours spent writing inadequate, unfair, and tediously slow answers to requests, but alas I cannot.

New potions, spells, and items should be our creation and introduced through plotwith minimal if any input from players. This would save us an extraordinary amount of time that we can use to devote to plot and event stuff and remove one huge stessor that isn't appreciated anyway, thus making everyone happier.

That said, we'll probably keep doing research, but I thought I would make my vote known.

I wasnt going to post but Mike has a great idea.

We can push research out via plot you know like with herb then remove the skill. That would be a lot less work and it accomplishes what I wanted which is a more living/breathing system that is more ingame and less out og game stuff.

If people are in favor lets get a vote going. Honestly I just want to make people happy.

Please don't misunderstand, I think this is a very interesting concept. I'm just worried about wanting to research "X" when all that is mapped out is research of "A" through "W". Does that make sense?

Removing research from the game is definately one way to stem the flow of 'icky' that you want to deal with, but the majority of the issues are already in-game.

On the same note, leaving it in and giving it a variable cost gives you the same "swiss army knife" that alchemy, arcane, and craftsman have become.

I will say that this particular decision will not affect whether or not I play the game. I enjoy it too much for that to happen. It could, however, alter the scope on what I play. I'm not much for overcomplicated rules.

I think removing research would be good too.

It prevents breaks in the system, it lets the gms handle it.

i would wait until the off season to make any changes. then we can poll, and take a look at what items/pots/spells we want or do not want in game and remove them.