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Atrum Draconus wrote:Well, a "weaker" resist is a matter of opinion.
Fear surges and can be packet driven and poison has to get to your life and is melee. You are FAR more likely to be affected by a fear call than a poison call once you are engaged in a battle. And Frankly the fact that they still could get an immunity to fear AND have a really easy track to getting to swing for fear because of their resists HAS to count for something. Name me ANY other resist where you can eventually be immune AND be able to make a call with it.

Isn't that called resist poison? Dwarven druid assassin.

Fear and posion are both surge attacks. ANY call is crush without a number in front of it. It's just that PCs don't have ready access to the later. They also don't have ready access to a numbered fear call.

Also, poison is not melee only. In fact, an arrow driven poison attack is a really awesome start for fighting a big bad.

Atrum Draconus wrote:I don't think anyone here is talking about nerfing any disciplines, but then again if there WAS a discipline that gave you immunity to fear even at 4th level it would have been nerfed years ago. And Dwarves DID have immunity to poison until it was pointed out that was broken.

immunity to fear at 4th is actually fairly weak for a 4th level skill to be honest.

Unless there's some mysterious combo that I'm unaware of, the reason dwarves lost immunity was that they are a 2 life race. Guthries are a 1 life race with a nice boon. However, a resist is better than a immunity almost every time. If it were the super awesome, greatest thing ever that you have claimed for 4 years, why do we only have like 1 or 2 if that?

Also, what immunity killed the town?

fear isnt that big of a deal, npc's dont use it to do crush to you, they usually use it so you will go away for a couple a seconds and quit harasing them so they can attack something else, were as poison hurts, i would rather take damage than have my skills shut down until a healer has 5 minutes to deal with it, immunity to fear is at best a 3rd level skill, but compared to other third level skills its weak.

A Simple fix, IMHO

Have any racial benefits only provide a Resist.

Have any Immunities come from Enhancements or Augmentations.

A system already exist for most skills that can be learned twice. Keep everything working the same way.

That combo doesn't give you 3 resists that allow you to swing poison.

Again, it's a difference of opinion, being someone who swings poison I'm telling you people that it's nowhere near as nasty as you think it is. Sure it'll shut your skills off but it'll take on the average 5-7 hits to get through the other persons armor and against NPC's it's normally 5 or 10 hits and thats for the NPC's it actually works against which doesn't include any type of undead, constructs and others. And you still can use your own skill to block. And yeah, archer assasin is nasty, probably one of the nastiest offensive combos, how many of those are there? Not everyone makes a character based on what's the most powerful thing they can make.

You're right, the PC's don't have access to those things you mentioned, which means they really shouldn't be given much weight in balancing consideration since you're probably never going to come across those things. I know I've never heard a numbered fear call.

Josh, you don't balance against how the GM's run the game. Because the NPC's that we fight that are normally fighting multiple people only use fear to make one of them run away for a bit doesn't mean that's it's most effective use. Fear and then beating on your back while you run away or doing it in a small room is the most effective use of it by itself. 2 people with the same stats 1 with fear and one without a resist the fear person will win every time no if's and's or buts. That is CERTAINLY not true of 1 with poison the other without a resist. Poison is EXTREMELY situational and for it to be nearly as effective as fear it needs to be combined with vorpal. Fear is both a defensive and offensive skill because it gives you time to either run away or time to beat on the other person while they can't do anything at all.

Atrum Draconus wrote:That combo doesn't give you 3 resists that allow you to swing poison.

but that wasn't your challenge, now was it? You only said swing, immune and resist. And FYI, you don't need to be a guthrie to swing, resist, and be immune to fear.

Atrum Draconus wrote:Again, it's a difference of opinion, being someone who swings poison I'm telling you people that it's nowhere near as nasty as you think it is ... And yeah, archer assasin is nasty, probably one of the nastiest offensive combos, how many of those are there? Not everyone makes a character based on what's the most powerful thing they can make.

So because you aren't using poison very effectively, it's not powerful? Poison should almost always take effect on the first hit if used properly(barring a resist or a hidden discipline). And as for archer assassins, there's more of them than fear swinging guthries, last I checked.

Atrum Draconus wrote:I know I've never heard a numbered fear call.

You also don't come to every event. I know there's numbered fear calls out there. In fact, I've swung them.

Ovak Stonecrusher wrote:Man, from this conversation I am surprised everyone aren't guthries...

Meh - I really dont play races based on their boon. I play them based on how I perceive the overall personality of the race and how it would fit in with the character based on what I've seen and read of that race.

Obviously, from Mike's statement, the Guthrie boon isn't broken or we'd have more than the.. *thinks about it for a moment* only one guthrie in game (and that's at WH). I can think of a total of three guthries ever played while I've ever played this game - FH & WH.

Perhaps guthrie is broken but they are just not popular enough for people to care?

Anyways, I don't care.

In fact I don't care enough to bother to read anything since Mike's post I just quoted. I personally think they don't need the boon changed. Having a Guthrie take a disipline and spend 40 points to resist fear does kinda suck though, but I'd say it's worth it to do the 2nd resist fear to hit someone back with it. *shrug*

Ooo.. I know! Lets not call them Guthrie. Let's call them Shadow Men. Then we can say that they were a race once completly made up of shadow. They used to live in a realm of nightmares, but due to well, let's blame the cataclysm cause a lot of stuff gets blamed on the cataclysm, they now walk among us. Racial costuming can be painting your skin either black, dark purple or dark blue. Boon of course is fear immunity.

Maybe that will be more popular.

I think I just created Anti-Valkin'Vi

(the correct response to this post is laughter)

The guthrie race was named after my wife. She is a 5ft Korean woman that has no fear and can imtimdate even a 6' tall man. So the guthrie is properly named.

As for the reason power gamers don't choose guthrie is becasue resist fear is so easy to get and it only gives you 1 life point. Depending on your charcter build, orc (offense) or dwarf (defense) are better.

Atrum Draconus wrote: 2 people with the same stats 1 with fear and one without a resist the fear person will win every time no if's and's or buts.

you could say that for alot of other skills as well so it dosnt make much sence, disarm/parry, magic root/resist magic.

I do use poison effectively, it needs to be combined with vorpal to truly be effective. Other than that it slows down your calls until your opponent doesn't have armor or combat reflexes. Or you need to make sure that the person isn't wearing any armor and doesn't have combat reflexes.

As far as the resist immune swing thing I meant by stacking resists not by buying skills that let you swing what the resist stops.

Hmm, which of us has been to more events again. I didn't say that it never is swung, I said that in the 6 or 7 years the games been running there haven't been any that I've heard.

Anyway, like I said it's a difference of opinion and I don't see either of us convincing the other. And as always with any of my suppositions about rules balance, we can ALWAYS test it. I'm EXTREMELY confident that as long as whatever build you can come up with doesn't have resist or immunity to fear, which btw will save you that oh so important life point that the dwarf gets, any fear build will whomp the other 1 on 1.

Ark wrote:

Atrum Draconus wrote: 2 people with the same stats 1 with fear and one without a resist the fear person will win every time no if's and's or buts.

you could say that for alot of other skills as well so it dosnt make much sence, disarm/parry, magic root/resist magic.

Right, but I wasn't saying it was the only combo. I was saying that it makes having immunity to fear which surges better than having a resist to poison which has to get through armor and combat reflexes and 1 extra life.

Poison can't be used as quickly as fear either. And you can Parry a poison attack from a pc because its got a number in front of it right? Assuming its from an assasin because their the only ones that can do it

PC 1:'3 vorpal poison'
PC 2: 'Parry'
PC 1: "Oh bother..."

Atrum Draconus wrote:I'm EXTREMELY confident that as long as whatever build you can come up with doesn't have resist or immunity to fear, which btw will save you that oh so important life point that the dwarf gets, any fear build will whomp the other 1 on 1.

I'd highly doubt that. Especially considering that the BEST pvp build, imo, doesn't have resist fear.

And I didn't realize that attending a handlful more events meant that you've been part of every battle. That's handy. I know for a fact it's been called in at least 3 events, but I also know you weren't involved in those battles.

Zeira wrote:Poison can't be used as quickly as fear either. And you can Parry a poison attack from a pc because its got a number in front of it right? Assuming its from an assasin because their the only ones that can do it

There are ways to guarantee that you deal the vorpal poison at a point in which they cannot resist it.

After some thinking, the only time immunity is broken is when a NPC monster swings fear multiple times in a row. And that is very rare. I have only seen it done once.

As Mike stated, if fear immunity was broken there would be many more guthrie's running around. As a power gamer I would not take guthrie because it is so easy to get a resist fear which leaves me open to chosse a race that grants a better benifit based on the type of build.

As for PVP, fear is nasty if you do not have resist fear or flee.

As offensive atacks, fear and posion are equal inmy mind. Fear is easier to use, but posion can destroy an emeny defenses. But posion is harder to use. Fear the 1 vorpal posion magic or 1 vorpal posion, all from a range weapon

Ok, an off the wall question here.

1.) Multiple 'Resist Fear' give you an immunity to Fear.
2.) Resist Fear is an active skill.
3.) Immunity to Fear is a passive skill.

If you are lose skills that are active (via a Poison or others), do you lose your immunity because the two active skills are lost? Or would you keep the immunity?

That is a good question. Based that it is passive skill, I would assume immuntites would not be effected by posion.

But that is just my opinon