Potion/spell/ blacksmith books

[Atrum Draconus]

I NEVER brew my potions out in the open... NEVER. I guess some alchemist may, but I can't imagine that anyone would have their brewing stuff just set up in the inn brewing up their potions where anyone can mess with them. But then again, maybe some would.

[GM_Chris]

You can always read your own book. Basically each arcane has their own chicken scratch they use.

[Kalphoenix]

Well, if you are there watching your potions most of the time (Or have someone actually watching it, which is the case with most alchemists who DO brew in the inn) it's not a problem, but I don't think that most people actually represent their brewing process. Alchemy should be a highly visible process. I'm not saying it has to be sitting on the inn fireplace, but it should definitely be represented in some scale.

I don't mean to be nit-picky but I think it's unreasonable to say that someone is brewing a potion under their bed and no one notices. I also think it should NOT be allowed for people to carry around brewing potions on themselves while they are fighting/exploring/etc. Even if a potion is being brewed in secret, it should still be tagged in some way (IE: Brewing potion) and carrying it around while it is brewing should interrupt it.

The only way someone should be able to brew a potion without someone knowing that SOME kind of process is taking place would be in a Haven.

As it stands now, there is no actual mechanical way to disrupt a potion unless you disrupt the person while they are gathering components or during one of the prep-stages. If there is a tag, then people are able to interact with it. If it only exists as a charge or a timer that the person is carrying with them, then how are people supposed to do anything with it? How can they prove they were there?

I also play an alchemist and I see alchemy as being highly useful with very few to no downsides as it currently stands. That should be one of the downsides of alchemy. If you are doing it where other people can feasibly be, it should be noticeable. It requires SOME equipment and should take up some amount of space. If you want to brew it out in a shack in the woods where no one will see you, that's fine too, but there's still a chance someone could see it, and that should be allowed. At the very least, I recommend either an 8x11 to even better, a construction-sized piece of paper representing the space being used for brewing. I have no problem saying that the alchemy equipment is easily obtainable and therefore can't actually be taken by another player (Since that totally destroys the alchemy discipline), but there should be a certain amount of space needed to brew. The brewing potion/s itself should have a tag, which can be turned into the ACTUAL potion tag at the end of the process.

[dier_cire]

Um, why do you need a rule to say that your potions were disrupted? You can roleplay it and if someone knocks over your stuff, then you can say your potions were disrupted. But for those that don't want to carry it that far, or consider brewing in slightly different roleplaying aspect, they can still have the freedom to do so. Unless you intend on going around and sabbotaging other alchemists, I don't really see the point.

As for spell books, I always thought they were in game items. I don't see anywhere in the rules that they aren't. It says quite clearly that you need a scroll or spell book with the spell in order to cast it. It also says that characters that cannot read can have an alternative to a spell book / scroll to cast (ie a bag of bones and maybe some scribbles that placing three bones in parallel and scribbling around them for a minute creates a light source) from but that the actually oog info must still be present (ie the oog info for the light spell). It is worded slightly poorly so it may be worth a rewrite.

Both scrolls and potion recipes are also bought as starting equipment, so I find it odd that anyone thought these were oog.

And when did blacksmiths need books? All their info is oog. New ways of making things are just additions to that info. If you lose it, you can go to the GMs and ask for the info. Course, they can always tell you that since you lost it, you forgot it, but it's up to them.

[Atrum Draconus]

Potions and items are stealable and they take a long time to create, thats their downside. Following that logic there should be an IG forge where all craftsmen should have to put tags for working on stuff. And dousing the forge with cold water should ruin anything being forged or triple it's create time or something like that. Like I said before at some point we need to just play a game and not look to recreate exact aspects of a socity. But, thats just my opinion.

[cole45]

"As for spell books, I always thought they were in game items. I don't see anywhere in the rules that they aren't. It says quite clearly that you need a scroll or spell book with the spell in order to cast it. It also says that characters that cannot read can have an alternative to a spell book / scroll to cast (ie a bag of bones and maybe some scribbles that placing three bones in parallel and scribbling around them for a minute creates a light source) from but that the actually oog info must still be present (ie the oog info for the light spell). It is worded slightly poorly so it may be worth a rewrite. "

That's the rub. They have no tags. that makes the physrep an out of game item with nothing to steal.

i love the idea of having gm approved spells that have a tag. I just want a TAG!

[Kalphoenix]

I DO think that forges should be tagged as well, especially if somehow a craftsman is making something that they don't have to stand there the entire time to make. When a craftsman is making something, he's there, that's the phys-rep. When an alchemist isn't standing where they are brewing a potion, there is no way to represent it.

Phys-repping is an incentive for better roleplaying and props. It burns me up to say that it's part of the rules for people to have great armor physreps (To benefit from armor bonuses), or proper size phys-reps for containers, but not phys-reps for other things, like alchemy. If there is an incentive to have better armor physreps, where is my incentive to put myself/my potions at risk by phys-repping them when no one else does? Why shouldn't I just brew them under my bed, or say I'm brewing them out in the woods somewhere, even though they aren't marked so no one could actually interact with them, even if they found them)? Right now there is immunity to anything happening to brewing potions. Would it be cheesy for me to wait until someone knocks over my cauldron with a potion brewing and then say "Oh, that's ok, I'm actually brewing it over here"? I think so, but there is no reason for me not to, since there is no requirement to phys-rep your potion-making process nor any rules to say where it actually is.

One of the other advantages to phys-repping these kinds of items is that I could see some new immobile craftsman items being made that could take advantage of the fact that you need to brew potions/make equipment somewhere. I see the possibility of an "Alchemical Workstation" where potion brewing times are reduced or where more potions can be brewed at one time than is normally possible for an alchemist. Even a "Masterwork Forge" where crafted items take less resources or also have their construction time reduced (Or perhaps certain rare player made items can only be constructed in this sort of forge). These are things that could add more to the game without breaking the mechanics. I don't think this is that nit-picky of a possibility and I don't see it as going too far.

At the very least, I would like to see a bonus offered to alchemists and crafters who choose to phys-rep a minimum size's worth of equipment (Thus putting it at risk), like a substantial cut in brewing/crafting time or an increase for those who don't. Something like this already exists with archers who use spell-packets instead of bows, and how armor that isn't real counts as one step lower than it is supposed to be.

I also don't think it's an unreasonable expense for players who choose to play these type of characters if it is expected that players who want to wear heavy armors are expected to acquire realistic armor for use in the game. I would imagine (experience, actually) that tagged bowls and things to represent Alchemical processes generally have a much lower cost than armor.

[dier_cire]

A. I'd never go for "labs", that are free just due to physreps. While they work there, there is no need for them here. Want to brew things faster? Get more alchemists. Or use commodities to create some tagged items that give a benefit and therefore force physreps, require upkeep, and fit into the system.

B. There's a big difference between armor and labs. Armor already requires a physrep to get any bonus. And the 'bonus' is so insignifigant that it's nigh worthless overall. But giving 'a substantial cut in time' is a major bonus to alchemy, which is completely outside the tiny bonus given to armor.

And why aren't spell books tagged? I had an ingame spell book for the year I was an arcane so what happened since then? I think someone is cheese weaseling the rules.

[cole45]

no one is cheese weasling the rules, there is just a rule oversite.

1. spellbooks\potion books must exist for you to cast spells.

2. they are not tagged, so they are in game-out of game items. (this is my biggest gripe. if they are in game TAG them, if they are out of game, SAY SO.)

say someone were to code the spells in their book. and then it got stolen. what would compel them to tell the gm's the code? there is no requirement that they be in english. If they were truly in game , the sages could decode it yes, but they are out of game physreps.....ahhhhhh.

making it a tagged item takes away all paradox.

[WayneO42]

there is no requirement that they be in english

The rulebook states:

In order to cast a spell, the character must have the scroll or spell book, with the spell written upon it, out and available when casting. All spells must be written down and performed as written at the time of casting. For characters who cannot read, this may be role-played in a variety of ways, but the scroll still needs to be present and have all of the out of game spell information written on it.

[cole45]

Yah. that is what I am saying. It doesn't say HOW.

[Atrum Draconus]

I don't understand how there is confusion. It's an IG item phys rep, just like a sword or shield or armor. I can see how someone may think it should have a tag, but each spell\recipe is a "tag" for itself, it seems silly to have to tape a tag to it. It can have any IG thing you want for the "spell" or "potion" in the book or on the scroll but you MUST also have the actual spell written out as given out by the GM's.

Wait, are you asking if the OOG info can be written in Spanish or Pig Latin or something like that?

[General Maximus]

A person must spend the time in game crafting an item or creating an alchmist potion. Where the person is, is where that activity is taking place. When they are not doing such activites all there gear is stored away. A person should roleplay out the activity or tell people what they are doing so people can react accordingly.
If one is looking for item that give one skills a boost, than one must create a commidity to do so. That's what they are for and must be properly phys rep'ed. So if you want an alchmey lab to reduce brewing time, than create it using commidities and have fun paying for it's upkeep every event . What you are asking can be done in game, but there is always a cost.
As for brewing potions, once they are mixes and waiting to mature, they can taken anywhere. there is as much risk to the potion if it sits under someones bed or if they are on the person. Both can be found and stolen.

[WayneO42]

Ah...I see where the disconnect is now. I read that as it has to have the out of game spell description on it in plain english. Maybe we do need to step it back abit and require each scroll/potion recipe/page of a spell book to have a tag for that spell. No Tag, No Spell. This would ensure that everyone is using the same write up of the spell as well. The player would just need to tape the tag into the book or have an envelope of tags at the back of their book or something.

If I were still playing my arcane, (Kildare...you know, the one that Chris killed on the forums ) I would just use a glue stick to glue three sides of every other page together (Forming a book of envelopes) and store my tags there.

[Atrum Draconus]

Uhm, I'd be ok with that but it seems like a policy handed down from the department of redundancy department. You pick up a wepon, you don't know what it does OOG or IG, so it needs a tag. You pick up a scroll or spell and it's clearly labeled what it does. Would you require that every time someone copied a spell or recipe they brought it to the GM's for approval and a tag?