Spell packets, game stops, and the like

[GM_Chris]

Nah we are cool and we do really appreciate the comments and of course love you all!. I think the money thing hit a sore point since we all responded to it with increased fevor.

So lets get back to the root problem.

1) PC's feel they should be able to get their OOG spell packets.

2) NPC's have issues getting all of the props they need.

3) NPC's should have to follow the same rules as PC's

4) GM's create the rules.

Solutions:
1) I actually bowed to Aaron in agreeing that the packets can be OOG to stop them from being stolen. (seems lame to be able to steal a packet). Please read above for my issues, and what I think is acceptable.

2) Only way to get better propts is to either a) get more people comming or b) raise the price. Currently we charge less than most larps in north america. We pick sites that allow us to capitalize on person growth and will work on that angle int he future.

3) Here I have a big problem with. No we do not have to follow the rules. I do not have to have a club phys rep to swing crush. I can call evade for missle damage. The fact of the matter is we have an entire NPC/Monster book with an entiresly different set of rules than the PC's. This MUST be in order to run a game. Trust me the siege would ahve been alot less fun if we say had PC stats

4) Nuff Said

[GM-Mike]

I want to apologize on the behalf of all of the NPC's for sounding defensive. Indeed we are on the money issue because each of us at this sliver of time are financially destitute and make no money on this game to date (in fact as mentioned just the opposite). This is fine except on those rare occasions when we are told to spend more money. So I'm sorry if some of us sound pissy but I thought you should know where that comes from.

As for the double standard, yes it exists because we are trying to represent many while you are representing one. There seems to be a difference between us representing more than one sword wielder than more than one packet wielder and it sounds like that is there because we can phys rep the sword better than the packets. Point taken. Given the above though and the fact that during the season and much of the offseason, running the game is like having another part time job (about 20 hours a week-sometimes more, sometimes less) then what's the solution?

I also want to reemphasize because I think this is reeally important that none of this came about because you guys did so well. That was AWESOME! I almost cried at how well organized you were, having come so far from the first event this year. I loved the fact that we couldn't get into your stronghold, even though I really wanted to for dramatic reasons. And I loved the fact that the arcane's felt useful. We are not trying to change rules here, just see if they can be implemented more smoothly.

So here are the two issues. Are the game stops actually a problem? I've heard both sides here and in other forums and two, what do we do about the packets? I've heard the suggestions so far and we may take some of you up on offers for trade, but I'm open to other options as well in terms of spell packet collection and whatnot. This was never meant to be an emotional discussion so I apologize again that it became one.

[General Maximus]

I pesonal don't have problems with the amount of game stops this game has. They are few, and when they do happen, it allows people to catch their breath.

As for packets, lets as a community make a bunch for the NPC's and if they forget to bring them, well, use your imangination

[Kalphoenix]

I personally don't have a problem with the game stops. Last game in particular, they were all done for a legitimate reason.

Also, I got my fur ruffled a little bit by the money comments too, so I'm glad that was cleared up before I made my post.

[Shea Stonebrook]

I don't have a problem making packets for pc's or npc's (for maybe some in game resources...no real life cash involved)

Before the battle at Kendal keep I passed out around 30 packets to pc's in need of packets.....

If you have the ability to throw magic you should have a good supply...Learn to make some!! It's like part of your character's personal effects/costume/armor/weapons.....I've made about 100 and now have about 20 left...but to me it's part of the cost of the game.

I know the GM's do the best job that they can...I'm willing to help out anyway I can...I don't see it as "their" game...but OURS and don't mind taking some of that responsibility.

Game breaks for the spells was not a problem...as the spell needed to be explained..... as for a game break just to pick up packet??? hmmmm not happy about but if it was indeed needed....just have to deal.

[Ug]

Ok, I think I have alot to say here. Where to start...

First, about the double standard between players retrieving spell packets and NPC's doing so. Double standards are going to happen. We have to represent multiple people with limited resources in an attempt to create a challenge for the player base. We need to do this and be as nondisruptive to game flow as possible (thus Todd's entire job in the battle in question was to throw packets back, limiting our representable fighting numbers by one). The problem with players doing the same thing is the amount of time that it takes--if spell packet collecting could be begun and finished by the time the arcane has finished the spell, NPC's would have no problem with this.

I understand the need for "double standards" when dealing with the numbers, however if spell packets are in game, I do not feel that an OOG NPC should not be throwing PC's spell packets back to NPCs as these are usable in-game items. Also, in defense of my game stop, noone heard me as I was trying to bring the point up during the game stop that took place 5 seconds previous, for which it was my understanding that it was called so that the NPCs could get more packets.

Anyway, the other possible issue is the game stops for spell casting...

All of the arcanes loved the spells going off in succession and I only know of 1 PC that I can think of who was annoyed by them.

I think this was a great event to be an arcane and I'd hate to take that from future event. By this I mean that you the rules expect an arcane to spend a bunch of time standing in a little circle to counter act something that may or may not happen. There is alot of work for an uncertain end. It would make it even worse if they don't get to see a result from their efforts. I don't think it would be the same to see a bunch NPCs staggering and falling to the ground (like they did such a good job of Saturday) instead of a GM just calling out "It looks like you've done some serious damage to the appraoching army. 3...2...1...Game On!"

You have captured the essence of it. If I'm going to be standing in place for 30+ minutes, I want to see some carnage and unfortunately it takes gamestops to do that. :\

Actually Packets are considered in-game items.

FYI - This has to be a recent ruling or an "assumed rule" because I cannot find this anywhere in the book.

Money to collect spell packets? Actually we have never been an event ahead financially yet. All the money we made last event will go into the renting of space next year. We are slowly moving toward the black, but only because every NPC continually funds the game out of their own pocket.

I helped to run CARPS for a year or so and do not understand how this is the case with the numbers that FH is bringing in. I completely understand some money-out-of-pocket expenses, but I also understand when to hold back on excessive spending. Certain items are more important than others and packets is one of them. I have also brought up the idea of FH cutting a deal with CARPS for use of the trailer (which would include the use of the TARP/CAVE system, etc, etc) which would have brought down costs in a big way, but never heard anything about it again.

I personally spent about 586 bucks for this event to help provide food and props.

I hope that you are including gas/etc in that number because I would cut someone off from the checkbook if they spent that much on a single CARPS event. That sounds more like the total number a single event should cost (including cabin rental).

I also know PC's spend alot of money as well, so all I am trying to say is at 25 bucks a person there is not as much money as you think.

How many PC's were there? At $25 times 30+ people being $750, you should be coming out green every event. Now, granted, I think CARPS may be paying less for the campground than FH due to # of events we booked, but I don't believe it is that much of a significant difference.

We rent the lodge, the pavilion, picnic areas, the warming shelter, and the hunting lodge (which we barely use but believe eliminating biker rallies is good for the game).

I've never seen any reason to go past the lodge, pavilion, and warming shelter because Norms will be prevalent whether they are rented or not. For instance, this event there were norms at one of the picnic areas even though they were rented.

As I mentioned under feedback we could create a 2k or an infinitely powerful golem creature whch is in game to pick the packets up for us.

You could, but the PC's would have just as much problem with that. I have no problem with an OOG NPC picking up the NPC's packets, but if the NPC's bring 4 packets to the battle and the PC's bring 40, I have issue with this. If the OOG NPC is just throwing back the 4 packets, fine, but we've lost ~75 packets to the game just this year and still have no idea where they went. I have considered writing our names on all of the packets and disallowing use of our packets by others because of this massive deficit. It isn't really the money (they are pretty cheap to make), but the time it takes to make them.

I have a big issue with packets being consider an in game object. It means people can steal them and keep them from people. Aka, prevent a person being able to use there abilities.

Leave it to you Nelkie.

$25 per person bearly covers rent. As Chris and Mike both stated, we as GMs and NPCs pay for props, costuming, makeup, etc out of our pockets. One way to help would be for those players who can afford it to donate items to the game. A few players have suggested a donation system to award those who can help (Not just financially but with their time as well). I think this is a must for next season.

A few points on this:

1. I think Katie was annoyed that they be "donations" and that there was no "reward system" in place. CARPS has a system for this and it is utilized by many people. Katie and I donate $300/yr ($100/yr per site) of webhosting to CARPS, FH, and WH. We have not asked for any sort of payment, though CARPS made the decision to reward us IG for doing so.

2. From the public financial records of CARPS, renting the campground is ~$425/mo (WS, PL, and Pav), storage space from our trailer is ~$20/mo, and we spend anywhere from $5 - $50 (plus some out-of-pocket $, just as you do) on props each month. So running CARPS is ~$500/mo, while ~30 players @ $25 is ~$750. If FH is covered by a business, the business can also write off the ~$500/mo at the end of the year. If you aren't, make certain you start doing that this year (make sure to keep receipts, etc). You can also write off gas (if Chris is part of the LLC, he can even write off almost his entire trip from Iowa). All the out-of-pocket expenses should be kept and recorded and reimbursed so the write-offs can be made.

NEWSFLASH!! NPCs ALWAYS have an unfair advantage.

I fully expect this, but remember that the annoyance over the packet issue was caused by a game stop that was used to pick up packets. Then annoyance ensued over a game stop that occurred due to the game stop ending early when a PC decided to question the motives of the game stop.

I will supply the puppies and the rainbows out of my own pocket.

As long as someone brings cookies!!!

Maybe we shouldn't. Maybe that is our true mistake. Maybe we should just say screw it and charge what other LARPS charge and be done with it. Would we loose players if we charged $50 a person?

I think we are losing sight of the point though. It costs less than $10 to make ~100 packets. Everyone is here to have fun, but I know that I for one would also like to see:

A) Event costs stay low.

B) NPC out-of-pocket costs equate to zero.

C) Money be diverted to necessity items and make certain not to divert them to non-necessities (campsite rentals, for instance).

I would pay money to see wayne shoot puppies and rainbows out of his pocket. really.

I am 100% with you on this. Though I think that I already saw this on a plot about 7 years ago. Hmmm...I'd pay to see it again though.

Nah we are cool and we do really appreciate the comments and of course love you all!

I (for one) want Chris's babies. Well...I'm willing to accept any minions really, but his would be especially useful.

I think the money thing hit a sore point since we all responded to it with increased fevor.

Unfortunately money is always a sore point for all. This is one of the reasons CARPS decided to make the finances public.

Only way to get better propts is to either a) get more people comming or b) raise the price. Currently we charge less than most larps in north america. We pick sites that allow us to capitalize on person growth and will work on that angle in the future.

Again, spell packets cost ~$10-$20 to make. I think some would agree with me that we would have rathered the NPCs have packets than one of the extra campsites being rented.

I want to apologize on the behalf of all of the NPC's for sounding defensive. Indeed we are on the money issue because each of us at this sliver of time are financially destitute and make no money on this game to date (in fact as mentioned just the opposite). This is fine except on those rare occasions when we are told to spend more money. So I'm sorry if some of us sound pissy but I thought you should know where that comes from.

Katie and I would be happy to go over the financials with you and help to put FH into the green. We wouldn't want to really do this more than once, but we'd be happy to go over things and see if there is an easy way to increase the financial output without increasing the price. We've learned alot from the CARPS financials to this end.

There seems to be a difference between us representing more than one sword wielder than more than one packet wielder and it sounds like that is there because we can phys rep the sword better than the packets. Point taken.

Again, I don't think that the root problem is that the NPC's get their packets back, but that the NPC's were getting alot of the PC's packets too.

Given the above though and the fact that during the season and much of the offseason, running the game is like having another part time job (about 20 hours a week-sometimes more, sometimes less) then what's the solution?

I am with you on this and gave up GMing at CARPS because I have a day job plus a small business and simply cannot contribute the amount of time necessary to help run the LARP. I feel your pain and completely understand. (Everyone give these guys a hug when next you see them, cause GMing is stressful as hell.)

Are the game stops actually a problem?

I vote no, I do not think they are a problem at all.

what do we do about the packets?

If you were real nice to Katie, she would probably be willing to make them. You'd just have to compensate her in some way (ie: $10 - $20 for materials and a hero point or some such).

it allows people to catch their breath.

As Nelkie just pointed out, some of us are getting old.

Also, I got my fur ruffled a little bit by the money comments too, so I'm glad that was cleared up before I made my post.

I considered cutting the money parts out of my post, but just spent the last hour or so writing it. I hope that noone takes offense to it, I just have some good experience with the financials thanks to Sam and others (Hmm...I wonder where his supply chart is...I have it around here somewhere...).

I've made about 100 and now have about 20 left...but to me it's part of the cost of the game.

I think that the Dark Elves eat them.

BAD DARK ELVES! BAD! BAD I SAY!

[/rant] and all that. I would re-read my post, but need to get to sleep. Hopefully everything above turned out as I intended it to. If anyone takes offense to any part of it, my apologies. I suck (as usual).

[GM_Chris]

Hmm I guess we have to start postingfinncial statements since people will not take us at our word.

Some facts

1) CARPS has been running longer than FH MUCH MUCH MUCH longer.
2) If we ran 10 events a year we would be green. Needless to say we have only had 20 events or 2 years worth of CARPS events. So lets say we come out a little green every event...well since the first year we flat out lost money, and as we have grown we rent more space, the little we do get has only had 10 events or so to accumulate. This comes to say at 200 inthe green an event to OH about 1k. Wow that is what we have, but unfortunatly is not enough to rent a year at the new place we are heading to sooooo we are left with 0 cash flow. Good news is we are growing and increasing.
3) Yes we would havemore money if we did not rent the hall, but we really feel strongly that elliminating a possible wedding or biker rally over rules allelse.
4) Our financial decisions are geered toward the site.
5) No idea you spent so much on our web hosting nor was I trying to compare costs between myself and others. I am sure others spend alot as well.
6) I will talk to Mike about posting a balance sheet as I described above since you seem to not understand where we are at.

[Indira Al'Estrella]

I think Brad was comparing a month to month cost. But our biggest concern is that you shouldn't be losing money, and it shouldn't be costing you out of pocket.

That kind of burden only adds to GM burnout. We feel there might be a better way to handle things, so that it doesn't come out of your pockets. But we really don't know the whole story, so we'll butt out. If you want one of us to look things over, we're here. If not...it's water under the bridge. Moving on.



p.s. Chris I love ya, but the world could not handle the spawn of you and Brad. I have to put my foot down on that one.

[GM-Mike]

Palmer Lodge and Pavilion $400
Warming Shelter $30
Picnic areas $60
Hunting Lodge $300
Out of pocket misc expenses $100-$200

Total $900-1000

Rationale: The biker rally last year took me right out of the event and I never wanted that again so we rented it for the best state of the game. Same with weddings in the picnic areas. It's not only so we are not disturbed by them but so we don't potentially ruin someone's wedding. This mutual respect is very important to me.

Not including out of pocket expenses, our net gain for the year is $960. The total cost to reserve our sites for next year (due right now)...$1100. As you can see, we are almost to the point where we are happily floating but not quite.

As for the spell packets, I'm sorry but they are not anywhere near the top of the list in terms of priorities. Perhaps you're right that it's not the cost but rather the time involved. Here are the things that I would put ahead of them:

Plots
Between event research
Trade route and tag distribution in folders
Printing of tags, forms, agendas, etc
Essential props and costuming
Sage Hints
Scout Hints
Eating
Sleeping
Wife
Child

All of these things take more time than one has and so I guarantee that spell packets simply will not get done more than once a year, probably in the offseason. And yes, we do make them and yes, just like you, we lose them to who knows where.

We had tried to come up with a reward system for donations and such and people complained about rewards for people who have the money to do so as being an unfair advantage.

Anywya, this post was really just a breakdown for anyone who was interested in where the money went.

[GM_Chris]

LOL

The thing is you are correct in that we are doing well, but you need momentum which we also have, but not for as long as you think. We ended the year 1k in the green, but we reinvested it into more sites.

This next year we might get int he green 2/3's in. The year after that half a year, and so on and so forh.

We are there, and if we had 10 events a year we would get there faster


FYI CARPS took I think 4 or 5 years to get there or 50 events. This time we did it in 20. Good track record.

[Ug]

What she said.

A few notes on "CARPS has been around alot longer."

CARPS was bankrupt about 2 years ago due to a GM who lost all of the $. Due to donations CARPS was able to pay off the trailer and continue chugging along. As far as props and such go, remember that CARPS is mroe than likely willing to share props (I have mentioned this in the past) and it would likely come at minimal cost. Has FH finished the paperwork for the LLC yet? If so, that should help as you'll be able to do some heavy write-offs. In any event, it sounds like month-to-month you're in the clear, but the way previous posts were worded it kind of sounded like you weren't. There's no need really to make your financials public, just offering to help in the event that anyone wanted it. CARPS is also doing some serious number crunching right now due to our financial situation and need to increase playerbase.

[Todd]

Ok, my turn. Earmuffs on.

Also, in defense of my game stop, noone heard me as I was trying to bring the point up during the game stop that took place 5 seconds previous, for which it was my understanding that it was called so that the NPCs could get more packets.

Im not trying to start (more?) sh!t but I would like to point out that I was the ONLY NPC moving packets. Of the packets moved I was collecting ONLY the ones at the mouth of the 'tunnel/door' At the time you protested, I was already in an OOG descussion with SoCo about the NPC use of packets. You didnt even wait for me to explain it before you rushed in to call 'shenanigans'. It could have been defused much sooner.

Actually Packets are considered in-game items.

FYI - This has to be a recent ruling or an "assumed rule" because I cannot find this anywhere in the book.

This happens on occasion because the Chris is quick to respond to any given situation, sometimes for the good, sometimes not. He has promised in the past to keep that to a minimum and I believe he has. Imagine how bad he would be if he wasnt reigning himself in.

.. we could create a 2k or an infinitely powerful golem creature whch is in game to pick the packets up for us.

In that particular situation I was acting as a 'Door', 'Packet retreival', and 'Narrator for the doorway'. Creating a distraction to cover a distraction just seems dumb to me.
Ex; The GM in the white shirt is distracting me and pulling me out of the scene. He should really be wearing a Black Robe instead.
We do our best to limit the detractions from game, but they will never be eliminated completely.

Unfortunately money is always a sore point for all.

Im so broke I cant pay attention. (and so ignored all financial questions)

and lastly

Game-Stops...

We are always trying to come up with ways to make the game flow more smoothly. One way to do this is to keep the amount of gamestops to a minimum.
Now. I want everyone to understand, as mike said earlier, No one wants to change the rules to make it so that the Arcanes cant shine*. We want to make it so that you can do it WITHOUT having to disrupt the scene by calling 8 gamestops in 2 1/2 minutes.
It will be discussed, and if we can find a way to do it then we certainly will, and if not.. then it will be one of those 'unavoidable pink elephants' that we will ignore for the good of the game..

And there in lies the goal..
'For the good of the game"


*footnote; Of any of the GMs (psuedo or otherwise) I especially loved the use of the Arcanes in that battle. Its what Ive been striving for since I created the first version of the Arcane rules.

[Amagus]

FYI - I don't see a problem with FH using the CARPS trailer - I'm sure everything would be reasonably put back where it was (especally with so many CARPS players there to help). We have weapon and shield phys-reps up the wazoo, so having them seeing some extra use isn't likely to be a problem (no big deal if a few break). Spell packets is a different issue, as you can't help but lose a significant percentage of the ones used, but it wouldn't be a problem to maintain seperate FH and CARPS packet bags.

Anyway, if this is something you want to pursue, I'll bring it up at the next CARPS NPC meeting to make sure it's okay on our side.

[Ug]

Anyway, if this is something you want to pursue, I'll bring it up at the next CARPS NPC meeting to make sure it's okay on our side.

I brought this idea up a while ago and the basic idea was that FH would help pay for (or completely pay for) storage of the trailer, now that the trailer is paid off.

[cole45]

I'm interested in talking about this for winterhaven if it's possible.