detect lie

Corbyn · Post by **Corbyn** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:27 pm

Using it as a conviction tool is not a crutch. In that case, it's often the closest thing we can muster towards an investigation/evidence in the limited, chaotic time we have at an event or in the disconnected void between events. A full investigation with interviews, witnesses, etc., provides the same challenges in terms of memory and subterfuge, but requires way more time than the use of a simple skill permits. For those of us trying to be good guys, arbitrarily exiling or whacking whole groups of people for being sneaky doesn't fit.

Doing those things would not make your dwarf or Robert evil, but definitely puts them in a different place on the moral compass than I believe the majority of the community is coming from.

Kittien · Post by **Kittien** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 8:48 pm

I agree with Corbyn, about detect lie as a handicap.

Donovan Thynedar · Post by **Donovan Thynedar** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 12:29 am

Chris, Detect lie is not the reason people hold back from taking those sorts of actions. It's a combination of player, character, and potlitical issues that is much more complicated than just a skill.

***

I just spent ten minutes trying to elaborate on what those issues were, and I only succeeded in pissing myself off. I will say that it has more to do with characters attempting to be "good" than it does with Detect lie. Vince has a good grasp of it.

Detect lie can stay if people think it's necessary. Personally, I'm in favor of it going away. It clears a lot of things up.

Onimaster · Post by **Onimaster** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 9:14 am

I don't like the thought that non-combat skills like detect lie are 'role-playing crutches.' Half the reason people play Larps it to play characters that can do things they can't... like throw spells, or intuitively know if someone is lying.

Lambic · Post by **Lambic** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 9:48 am

I think I wasn't quite clear. What I meant was that if you have been "tagged" then you weren't sneaky enough. That is just how I would play a character with questionable morals. I only bring it up because it seemed the reasoning being offered for why to get rid of Detect Lie, and it seems to be in opposition of that.

Lambic most certainly has thought about not being able to trust the person who says they can Detect Lie. In fact He has brought this up in Council Meetings.

Lambic is not predjudiced in that manner. Therefore he does not act that way. If all the sneaky people were exhiled, then Lambic couldn't have the guilty one could he. Oh and he will have that person.

I do agree that it could have a little higher cost, more LP or Time. It seems to be used alot. but then again I thought that was what skills were there for.

Peace420 · Post by **Peace420** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 10:56 am

Doing those things would not make your dwarf or Robert evil, but definitely puts them in a different place on the moral compass than I believe the majority of the community is coming from.

I'm not so sure "the majority" of the town is NOT like the dwarf. There are a few people that aren't but for the most part even most of the characters that claim to be ultra good are really more like what Chris described, they just justify their actions by saying it's for the good the same way Chris does.

I agree with Matt and Vince, I don't like the fact that role playing skills are being labeled as crutches because they get used alot. How many booms get thrown in a game? How many times does taunt get used? how many backstabs? How many times are people healed, wanna talk about a "crutch". Are all the combat skills that get used every fight a crutch? They are only good in battle and they get used then. Detect lie is only good for trying to root out the truth of an issue and thats when it gets used. In the last off season I did note that it needed something that could defeat it because it was a low level skill with no counter but that was fixed. You want to be the ultra sneaky type, take spy. I can say as well that I have not been detect lied since my trial and before that it was quite awhile back. And I've been black-dark grey since the beginning of the game and only lately have been moving toward a lighter shade of grey.

I do agree that it is a skill that can be manipulated but the same can be said for interrogation, both the implantation and the questioning.

Post by **GM_Chris** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 11:06 am

There is a difference.

I have seen so many times when a person feels and knows a person is guilty but because they passed a detect lie test then it must Not have been him OR they were cheating.

That is what I mean by crutch. I have not seen, and I could be way off, but has anyone convicted a fellow player on a crime even though detect lie proved they were not lieing?

And if the above answer to the question is No Chris if it is a PLAYER and they pass detect lie and we knoow there was no way to sneak through it then we will not prsecute.

Then

Has anyone considred the fact that I know there are about 15 players in game that have either through boon or magical device that gives them immunity to the skill Detect lie?

Not to mention those people with duel character sheets who actually have hidden disciplines but cary fake character sheets around so people will not know for sure what their character has?

And

Dont forget the mole PC we choose every event to give some extra special power to that no one knows about which is either more alliegence or some other skill so that players who are good at keeping track of points never no for certain what anyone actually has at any given time

Peace420 · Post by **Peace420** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 11:13 am

LOL, how come none of the not so good guys I know have that immunity then? And the only boon I've ever gotten is having an entire hordes warriors after me, I feel so left out.

Amagus · Post by **Amagus** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 12:02 pm

I think Vince hit the nail dead on the head. Detect Lie is necessary so PCs don’t have to spend every spare moment pursuing meticulous and very not fun investigations. IF Detect Lie fails, then so does the investigation. It makes total sense that the interrogator then believes the subject to be innocent. Yes, the Dwarf and Robert’s viewpoints add some nice RP flavor, but consider how much FH would lose if they ever came to fruition. I don’t think they’re acceptable replacements for the Detect Lie skill.

And I definitely don't like the implication that a game skill has been made practically useless by making a large percentage of the player base immune to it.

Nelkie · Post by **Nelkie** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 12:08 pm

I agree with Vince and Matts suggestion. If detect lie is removed from the game, than interrogate will be used to find the truth. But remember that interrogate does not mean you hurt the person and use sharp pointy things on them, it can be done by talk, mystical means, etc..

Detect lie makes questioning quick and easy. Remove it and you will still have people questioned, but instead of 30 secs, it will take 30 minutes.

I personaly see it as a roleplaying issue, not a skill issue. It is hard to be evil in a town where alot of people are trying to be good and hunt evil. Remove detect lie and some other skill, mechanic, or just plain RP will be used instead. I can see detect lie being a get out jail free card for a person who is sly enough to get around it. In the wheel of time books, the I said I's can only tell the truth, but it does not stop them from misleading people in what the truth is.

I pesonal see detect lie more of a PC vrs NPC thing, and once in awhile PC vrs PC. Most people who are repeadly questioned in town have earned the rep of being untrust worth for one reason or another for be it for what they have truely done or by rumors that have been spread by other people. Once tagged as shaddy, untrust worth, possibly evil, it is almost impossible to remove the label. Welcome to LARP.

Onyksi Rin'oviryn · Post by **Onyksi Rin'oviryn** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:22 pm

*sniff* yeah... what erik said... how come no not so good guys get immunities to detect lie? dang, we're the ones who need them!

Post by **GM_Chris** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:50 pm

I think you not so good guys are not being intierely truthfull to the public.

Anyways, I do not understand why you have to spend alot of time in investigations, that is an RP choice. Why not assign a person who finds that fun to spend the event interrigating people. That would be alot of fun for a few people. Then maybe aftr chatting with each player you make a choice.

THIS IS THE MIDDLE AGES! You do not have to have a CSI lab. All you have is what people say and you choose to believe them based on expierence and RP bias.

I might have a character who isnt racisist but in the past I had Nuk lie to me so well I probably wouldnt trust her so much now.

Oh and why is detect lie useless? I will tell you now that everything I said was true to a degree and if you used detect lie on me well I would answer as I did and say I wasnt lieing since there is truth is what I said above. How much truth I will not say, but every statement is true to a point. Then again maybe I havea magic device....

My point is why is detect lie the absolute end of an investigation we in the USA do not even consider lie detection measures admissable.

Donovan Thynedar · Post by **Donovan Thynedar** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 4:34 pm

GM_Chris wrote:I think you not so good guys are not being intierely truthfull to the public.

Anyways, I do not understand why you have to spend alot of time in investigations, that is an RP choice. Why not assign a person who finds that fun to spend the event interrigating people. That would be alot of fun for a few people. Then maybe aftr chatting with each player you make a choice.

THIS IS THE MIDDLE AGES! You do not have to have a CSI lab. All you have is what people say and you choose to believe them based on expierence and RP bias.

I might have a character who isnt racisist but in the past I had Nuk lie to me so well I probably wouldnt trust her so much now.

Oh and why is detect lie useless? I will tell you now that everything I said was true to a degree and if you used detect lie on me well I would answer as I did and say I wasnt lieing since there is truth is what I said above. How much truth I will not say, but every statement is true to a point. Then again maybe I havea magic device....

My point is why is detect lie the absolute end of an investigation we in the USA do not even consider lie detection measures admissable.

Yes Chris, but we in the USA also have an established system of laws that lessens personal accountablility for those who enforce them. We have an agreed upon, enforced method of determining guilt and enough power (as a society) to deter anyone from assaulting that system. Also, the lie detection abilities available to us do not have the benefit of a rules system saying that they work (or at least giving us the preconception that they should work).

In FH we don't have a CSI lab, evidence, or any sort of modern recording tools. We often only have the sketchy testimony of questionable characters to base our conclusions upon, and that isn't enough for a character of "good" consceince to kill or exile someone. Add in the effects of magic to alter minds, perceptions, or even a person's will and it becomes even harder for virtuous characters to kill an accused wrongdoer.

I think people are attached to "Detect Lie" because it provides some sort of absolute. It's (supposedly - not in practice) the one thing you can count on to provide reliable, objective facts. That should make the CSI unnecessary, but as we've seen, it doesn't work like that.

One of the reasons I'm in favor of the removal of Detect Lie is that it creates a shield for the evil types to hide behind. If someone can get around Detect Lie, than the "good guys" can't touch them. Their only objective source tells them that the shady ones are telling the truth, so they (being good guys) can't touch them. Remove Detect Lie and they've got nothing to hide behind. It becomes their word versus the interrogators - and then the character of the individual comes into question.

Post by **GM_Chris** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 6:58 pm

Exactly my point

In earlier times people did not have csi labs, relied on sketch testamony and believed that magic and other forces influenced their decisions.....yet they still were able to carry out justice.

What I dont understand is how people feel the only way to have justice is with a skill. I think it removes what could be great RP vrs a list of questions in front of the truth stick

Corbyn · Post by **Corbyn** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 9:39 pm

Wow, a third of the player base is immune to a skill? Awesome. I will start planning my character's development around an immunity to magic, as it appears that it just might be a matter of time till I have it. What's the rationale for that number of PCs gaining such an immunity? Enough GMs don't like it so let's create many opportunities for PCs to find a way to avoid it?

To be honest Chris, you have mentioned having a problem with your perceived use of detect lie. I take that as your not understanding how we as the players choose to apply it in the world laid before us. While your questions are valid, I'm not sure that falls within the scope of your role as a GM. In the past you have been very adamant about letting things presented to the PCs unfold. This strikes me as contradictory.