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For the same reason that Christen, Aaron, Eric and Vince have voiced:

I am here to have fun and this is fun for me...

It's a difference in gaming philosophy. I respect their right not only to have their own opinion but to pursue their own fun, even if I don't agree that it's the best for everyone. What they are doing doesn't directly impact me in most circumstances, it only deprives me (and others) of opportunities, but I'm certainly not going to walk over there and demand they roleplay with me or anyone else.

So do I think it's an issue? Yes. Do they? No.

And because I respect their rights I don't think anything should be done about it. However, it IS my opinion that certain practices in LARPs contribute to OOG mechanics/factors affecting in game decisions for some people. Which is where this whole conversation stemmed from. I don't think just because you have a different opinion about something that you should seek to implement your way as the only right way. Which is why I was surprised when both Eric and Vince called me arrogant because I had a differing opinion about LARP philosophy, even though I wasn't seeking to make mine Final Haven policy.

I didn't point at anyone doing it, they came forward and volunteered that they did as a whole separate conversation. The Elder's Order group are NOT what I'm referring to here with Amagus, they only happen to be the most vocal about their personal preferences with whom they roleplay.

Cool beans. Good post Tonia

I don't think anyone group only rp's with themselves. I like to rp with everyone. And I tried to trade with people, but every time I sat down to talk they were carried away on a plot, good for game bad for trading... Heck I even raised from the dead that pretty elf during the event , so much for my being a separatist and elitist, if I were why would I bother wasting my time casting resurrection? It certainly was not a PR move, as death with a body with in 30 minutes is not that dramatic.

I don't think anyone wants to "only" rp with certain others, and I don't think that was ever said in or out of game or in this post or any other. Sure a person could take a sentence out of context and twist its meaning to say that, but no one, at least that I am aware of has said they want to rp exclusively with one group and NO others. They may wish to be a part of an in-game organization, because they know that it is the one their oog friends are in, but that doesn't prevent them from rping with others. In truth, I see more of the people who are NOT in the Order than ANY member of the order except Nat... which I can not avoid

Like Tonia said you cannot force people to rp with you, and that goes so many ways. Like I said before, if I bring in a new PC and I try to rp with a new group and they treat me like an outsider because my previous pc was in the order, and then I rp with the members of the Order and they are open and inviting and sharing why would I waste my time? I’m not saying I should be able to walk in and have people say… “you look like a trustworthy adventure, care to join us?” But there are skills in game to talk to people to check their trustworthiness to see where they stand. And if I were to play a new character and get rebuffed by one group and checked out and accepted by another, I wouldn’t waste my time trying to get the first group to accept me.

BTW I only know about half the names of the members of the Order OOG. I still don’t even know all their names IG!

Mind I’ve been playing Eli since the first event, and the Guild of light was by NO means the only group to come into game together. People still do this today. They die or create a new pc, and their friends do so as well and they come into game with their friends. Just about everyone I can think of does that:

Guild of Light
Tonia and Brian as his Knight-assassin and I cannot recall which character came she played when she came in with him) or as
The orcs
The Phoenix
Roland and Crew
Pugo and Ogrom

I mean this was talked about before the game started. We were all sitting around at play testing discussing who would join which group, and trying to recruit people oog to play a certain starting pc in each group. Which btw is where I FIRST met that tall a$$ elf Crobyn, while I had known Todd Colin and crew for years. I wasn’t even asked to play a character in their group. Which may have been because at the time Todd, Colin, and I were in mortal combat at Carps (see classic carps Galen and Sylas vs. Dimack… ) If FH were starting today, I’d probably be in their group! See Current carps Sylas and Daniel to save the day (btw, sorry about dropping the necromancer in your lap and leaving town.. owe you one, maybe two…) Or it could have simply been because I at one point was in Blackthorn’s group(Aaron 1.0) and he had begged me to try FH out when I was hesitant. BTW thanks for that Aaron, it has been a great 4-5 years and I look forward to the next 4 years.

Try as I might, I cannot see anything wrong with joining a group you were in before. From outside I see what appears to be that going on all the time. I really have a hard time remember every guild name, and every person in each one. Sure some, General-Orion are more obvious, but to me it really seems like everyone does it. Like was said before actual RGO membership is far less significant then who you hang out with and who you adventure with. Sure your new pc might be in a different RGO that your last… but who does your new pc hang out with? Adventure with? I look at it less as RGO’s and more as cliques. And when I do that I see a lot of the same people playing with the same people. I am not saying that is a problem, I am simply saying that if “guilds” were removed from the equation, who do you rp with?

I would say you’d RP with Erica, Brian, Eric T, Todd, Me, Nat, and others but you seem to hang with Erica and Brian with every Character. I’m not attempting to single out Tonia because the same could be said about me. I RP primarily with Nat, Aaron, Eric R, Vince, and the Carps players All of them Todd, Temp, you, Erica, Colin when he comes, Jim Etc. I don’t try to ignore anyone, but it seems like these people rp with me more than most others. I could never play a Phoenix, because I rp to have fun and taking orders is NOT how I have fun. But I love rping with the Man. Anyway I just think that some people are obvious while other are not.

Eli wrote:Heck I even raised from the dead that pretty elf during the event , so much for my being a separatist and elitist, if I were why would I bother wasting my time casting resurrection?

I think you did it because you got the opportunity to grope me while I was dead! ((Just kidding, nothing inappropriate happened.))

Eli wrote:I would say you’d RP with Erica, Brian, Eric T, Todd, Me, Nat, and others but you seem to hang with Erica and Brian with every Character. I’m not attempting to single out Tonia because the same could be said about me.

I'm not sure why the following point keeps getting brought up, since at NO POINT during the course of this discussion have I ever criticized it, but I have NO problem with people who want to create a specific group or set of characters with a backstory and come in and roleplay it. What I DO have a problem with is when the same people come in consistently with the same groups of people over and over and over again. Period. And never once have I pointed to the Elder's Order peeps, though you guys are the ones that keep bringing up your own personal stories. I actually have more of a problem with a different group.

Yes, I came in with a group of Orcs to a LARP I had never been to before. Obviously, it was impossible for me to go to a LARP with not a single person I ever knew and come in as part of their group. The three original Orcs that came, came specifically looking for a group to join or someone to serve/be employed by (and ironically after the first event it was going to be Donovan, but he kinda screwed that up in the second event, LOL).

Every single character I've ever had at this LARP has belonged to a different guild (Orc Tribe, Azure Shields, Guild of Thunder, Falcon's Flight). The only time I've ever belonged to the same guild as either Brian or Erika was when I specifically created a character to play with that person (Brian=Orcs, Erika=Gypsies), which again, I've never criticized. Despite what anyone thinks the Orcs were never in any guild with Roland, Atrum or Nuk and though I was bummed to say so, our respective roleplaying was extraordinarily limited.

Nathanael and Talana share a backstory or realm that they come from, but have never even been in the same guild together ever and have only been on one mission together - the rest of our time is spent separately. And Talana can't stand and avoids Nuk.

As far as the Gargoyle, I offered to play her for Evan as Lao before it was ever even discussed that Erik would play Onyx. And that decision wasn't even mine, it was Christen's and the GMs.

Grok was brought in to play with Brian/Jux.
Talana was brought in to play with everyone.
Pasha was brought in to play with Erika/Nadia.
Jade was brought in to play with Evan/Lao.

So I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that I only roleplay with a group of 5 people or so, but perhaps if you roleplayed with me more often while I was actually ALIVE, you'd have a better idea about my characters.

my .02 cents.

SoCo. Yes, Daniel owes me. Big!

As for why some people should think about asigning themselves to any one guild before even walking into game.
1) Eli (SoCo didnt make it into game with Colin and I because before we were even done play testing Nelkie had a nice pretty spreadsheet made up assigning each character there guild stats)
2) Maximus (Woden was trying to rally ALL the dwarves, and had all but one sitting at the same table, without even excepting a seat at the Table Maximus swore himself to Corbyn)

Now before anyone takes this the wrong way, these are only 2 examples, and the first is only included because SoCo brought it up. The second is to point out MY personal belief. By pre-determining your characters allegiance you DO NOT facilitate role-playing, you DO supercede it. Nelkie came into game expecting alot of good roleplaying oportunities, but instead limited the oportunities available to him. Luckily things are working out ok, but its still more then a little disappointing to have an event of 45+ PCs and have interactions limited to 5 to 10 characters because of a dicission made before placing a foot on the feild.

~fin~

Soco noone was "asked" to be a part of the group of us that ended up banding together because we didn't prearrange it. In fact the only semblances of an arrangement was Sylas being with Roland which only made sense and Dave and I saying we were going to be murderers. Then I got into game and my character believed that killing people off would be stupid because we needed every sword arm just to survive, so that plan went out the window and the first Sat night of the first event Dave thought I was going to try and gank him and I thought he was going to gank me. So don't feel left oout and don't think it had anything to do with CARPS. It was simply that we weren't pre planning out our guilds or even associations.

And Tonia, I actually was talking about playing the gargoyle just after they were born, I ended up playing both of them that night since Solari was already dead and Christen really had nothing to do with me playing Onyx.

Todd,

Me swearing allgence to Corbyn has not stopped you unifing the dwarves together. We might not be a guild mechanicaly, but it does not mean we can't be brothers in arms and start something realy cool. Contine the plan of bring the dwarves togther and you might be surprised what will happen.

I might have joined Corbyn, the chossen one, But I still open to any roleplaying, espicaly when it comes to dwarven honor and brother hood.

Peace420 wrote:And Tonia, I actually was talking about playing the gargoyle just after they were born, I ended up playing both of them that night since Solari was already dead and Christen really had nothing to do with me playing Onyx.

I offered to play the Gargoyle for Evan on Saturday before they were even hatched. I knew nothing about you playing a Gargoyle until Sunday morning after the event. I'm not saying it wasn't arranged before that, I'm just saying that I did not know about it. And obviously, I'm not upset... just making a point that I didn't "choose" per se to play that role to be with you.

Wow - this thread is degenerating into sillyness. So, might I add:

I wrote up Ming with a backstory and every intention of coming into game playing with Lao (my hubby), so there.

Alot of what happens in LARPS and MMORPG guilds is this super friends, everyone should get along enlightened ideal. Personally I think that attitude is bad RP considering the world in which FH is played. Not saying that is happening in our game, but if anyone tends that way then they need to break out of it. Have a spine and stand up for something.

My issue is when you have a good number of people with a live and let live attitude. Live and let live is not an oppinion it is a non oppinion.

As for enforcing the rules I would suggest RP'ing your respective characters.

I am just saying there is an infinite amount of options. You can make a difference with simply being upfront, honest, and sticking to a set of beliefs.

I'm sensing a paradox here: between being told to not be afraid to just roleplay your character and yet to not let that character have opinions that are viewed as non-opinions (such as live and let live/superfriends) for fear it will be called bad roleplaying. Trust me, it's hard playing a character as...innocent as Eilonwy. I catch myself wishing to do or say things that only other characters I have, or myself, would do and so have to rein it in. Does it matter what a characters opinions are, even if you don't agree with them OOG, as long as it fits the characters current beliefs? They can always develop new ones as the game goes on if it's appropriate.
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3) The GM's should never tell a PC how to play there character. Thats been a basic rule since day 1.

There are some people within Haven who have the ability to divorce their 21st Century minds from that of their characters and uphold the sort of loyalty that made medieval power work; but there are many who, either by their own disposition or their character's, do not answer to that sort of authority.

Looking at history, it seems a bit romantic to say that medieval society worked.
" 'Ow do ya know e's a king?"
" "E 'asn't got shite all over'em."

And there's so much more...Great list by the way.

Only the third hint is worth a shit.

Very, very true.

II really like your comments on moral absolutle. You are correct without absolutes you have real issues, but then again that is the entire point of post modernism and alot of other modern philosophy.

It is probably why we have alot of people with lack of fullfillment and problems

Again, there have been plenty of problems over history, regardless of changing philosophies. Besides, even when setting absolutes, others will probably have a different list anyway.

Eilonwy wrote:

There are some people within Haven who have the ability to divorce their 21st Century minds from that of their characters and uphold the sort of loyalty that made medieval power work; but there are many who, either by their own disposition or their character's, do not answer to that sort of authority.

Looking at history, it seems a bit romantic to say that medieval society worked.
" 'Ow do ya know e's a king?"
" "E 'asn't got shite all over'em."

And there's so much more...Great list by the way.

Thanks, and by no means am I implying that medieval society was an efficient, fair, or good thing. It was, however, operational at a very base level. A person could usually figure out what was expected of them and what behaviors would or would not be tolerated.

The same claim (that it is operational at a very base level) could be made for Haven, but it has nothing to do with any in-game presumption or system. We superimpose our own 21st century values onto our characters in combination with our experience and expectation as gamers. This, when merged with our individual character histories, gives each character a sort of compass.

Eilonwy wrote:

Only the third hint is worth a shit.

Very, very true.

I'm glad I got this one right, considering it represents the extent of my knowledge of the FH sage system.

Eilonwy wrote:

II really like your comments on moral absolutle. You are correct without absolutes you have real issues, but then again that is the entire point of post modernism and alot of other modern philosophy.

It is probably why we have alot of people with lack of fullfillment and problems

Again, there have been plenty of problems over history, regardless of changing philosophies. Besides, even when setting absolutes, others will probably have a different list anyway.

True enough, and thinking on it, perhaps it's a two-fold problem. The idea of a moral absolute really only gains significance (in anything but a philisophical argument) when there is a society to set expectations around it. Haven lacks both the absolute and the society. Other fantasy worlds at least hint at what "good" or "evil" might be, and normally have gods, spirits, or some sort of confirmation mechanism to let people know where they stand. If not, there's usually an existing regime that enforces what it thinks is right.

I suppose the reason we're having so much trouble with this is that there's nothing to which our characters can react. With our 21st century intellects and sensibilites guiding the way there's no way for our good guys to know they're good and no way to call our bad guys bad. While this leads to some great roleplaying dilemmas (ergo: this entire discussion), we've been kicking it around for a few years now. It comes up every time the town either passes or fails to pass judgement on someone, and I doubt we've heard the last of it.

The good news? At least it makes for some interesting conversation.

Soo back to something i said Oh 8 pages ago.

Would it help if we as GM's kind of made an outlined of what each race considers "good" and "evil"

I fear it won't help, Chris. Sure, it is nice to know the stereotype of a certan race, but Haven is a freakin' melting pot. Chances are, what a certain race was brought up to believe will not stick well in Haven when confronted with so much diversity.

Oh I agree it is more of giving people a "root" when they help create their character, This would not be in the rule book, more of a website add on

I think an 'outline' of how a race considers Good/Evil is a bad idea. For example see the greif already being caused in-game about 'honor duels'.

Wayne and I were talking about cleaning up some of the 'history' stuff. I think just including it in that would be sufficient. Especially because of the 'anything goes' backstory's we allow.