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A more accurate statement for "There is no Metagaming at FH" would be to say there is no "Out of Game at FH". You are free to use in-game information that you hear out of game. There is more to metagaming then that. Higher levels of Metagaming are shitty and can and will be stopped by the GM staff. Things like looking in peoples checkout envelopes. Reading over their shoulder as they fill out the checkout paperwork etc etc are bad. Using in-game information you heard two people talking about at a party while they are drunk is still cheesy but is almost impossible to stop so we dont try. Trust us, we did try for a long time at CARPS and it just added agrivation.

Temp: I was not referring to Eli nor FH for that matter. I was simply expressing that changing groups between one character and the next is not always easy or even effective. I’ve been playing Eli since the start and have pretty much kept with the group I started with. My other Character only went with them because they were his only chance of survival.

Tak: I am trying to agree to your socialism plan, however, much like its failure in Russia I see far too many flaws in it here. Mostly it is the who gets to control all the resources, who gets to determine who get their equipment up kept this month and who doesn't, who get to determine who eats etc.

I have some ideas on this but think I'd like a few weeks to think them over. Perhaps it would be better to keep them for me at least to rping, much like you and I did last moon, but then you'll be gone, so soco sad.

And that is a good point you need a baseline.

I have no idea what your garg might do you just started playing her. I have no idea what General Max might do he just started playing him. I have a pretty good idea what Vince's character and other long term characters would do and I have not had one disappointment.

Also, I do not understand how you can judge if a person is doing something for OOG reasons or not except in the most obvious of cases.

I mean Aaron clearly created max to play with Vince and gang, but even though he started off that way does not in anyway mean he will stay with the group because neither of us knows his character. It is possible he will stick around for in game loyalty. Maybe this new character has different motives and other characters may influence him differently than his last character. Basically we do not know.

In all the years we have been playing we have not had that many deaths. Of the people who did die Aaron seems to be the only person who is blatantly came in to join the same group. Other people I know have made distinctly separate characters. Infact for Vince’s group at least I think Aaron is the ONLY character to do that while the rest of them must be in for RP reasons since I know he didn’t start with them.
The GM staff interacts with alot of the characters ALOT via PM and such and for the most part you players have no clue what each other is doing behind the scenes. You do not see the individual RP with NPC's.
Now since you brought up "other GM's" I will have a conversation in private about that since NOTHING has ever been posted on this subject for the entire course of the game and ANY GM who has voiced this to you better be prepared to back it up. Basically I want to assure the player base that no GM has any issues with anything any player is doing as far as I know.

GM_Chris wrote:Also, I do not understand how you can judge if a person is doing something for OOG reasons or not except in the most obvious of cases...

The GM staff interacts with alot of the characters ALOT via PM and such and for the most part you players have no clue what each other is doing behind the scenes. You do not see the individual RP with NPC's.

Read up, Chris. I'm not saying you're not privy to some private stuff, but that for the most part the most frequent and consistent roleplaying is within the PC character base. You've been out of the loop since you went to Iowa and there is certainly no criticism of that, so to use past examples, do you think you knew what motivated Grok more than Jux, Iza, Robin or even Donovan? Doubtful. Regardless of the very intense RPing done with several NPCs on occasion. I think most of the player base is the same and while you may have some private exchanges with players - the remaining 48+ hours at events are spent primarily with each other. That's all I'm saying.

GM_Chris wrote:Now since you brought up "other GM's" I will have a conversation in private about that since NOTHING has ever been posted on this subject for the entire course of the game and ANY GM who has voiced this to you better be prepared to back it up. Basically I want to assure the player base that no GM has any issues with anything any player is doing as far as I know.

Feel free to start the GM Witch Hunt, Chris, LOL, but you'll have to look at some of your own statements and observations that you've made about the player base in personal conversations with other players, including myself. I'm not talking about official posts, nor am I talking about GM decisions, but opinions that I've heard out of you, Mike, Wayne and Todd over the past four years.

Finally, I'm sending you a PM. I want you to monitor a situation as best you can as an example and you see where some of this is coming from.

But remember there are several threads going on here (aside from the initial event feedback):

#1 - Nelkie complaining about why the town has let Amagus live. (Which is ironic because it presupposes he knows what the town is and is not doing.)

#2 - Theories about apathy in and out of game.

#3 - Roleplaying styles and exclusivity.

#4 - Metagaming.

It is my contention that #2, #3 and #4 all answer #1 in general (not specifically about Amagus, since I don't think Fesko is a metagamer).

It is not a witch hunt I just want to make sure we as a staff are all on the same page.

Though I am out of the loop in some ways, I am not anymore out of the loop than normal

And to be clear I do not think the GM staff has any authority or knowledge or any possible way of knowing a person's motivations or if they are RP'ing their character properly. All I saying is you are not an authority either. NEither is anyone else in the game.

People talk in and out of game all of the time, but no one knows a character except the person playing the character.

Wow.. a lot of bad juju floating around in this thread.

I have a question, the order is doing nothing more than colins merc group did by staying out of politics and living in there own tents away from the town. To my knowledge there was no problem when he and his group did it, but because the order is doing, there is a problem. What gives?

Because we were very upfront about the fact we were just going to sit back and do jobs for resources. Key word is mercenary.

You guys, well, nobody knows what you're doing besides not getting involved with the rest of town or trading.

Just to put my two cents in.(I'm ultra newbie.)

I know for a fact there actually are a few characters that don't have a problem with amagus on moral grounds. Not everyone doesn't appreciate his presence. (He makes Sen a little nervous. So do Jade and Onyx.)

I came to Final Haven TOO play with the Phoenix guys. I hated larps, and the only reason I was here was to play with Phil,taki,matt,blndie and crew. They my life long friends.

However, Now I play a different character, but I'm still in the same group. BUT, I certainly don't roleplay within that group only.

Anyway, I like all the discussion here, no one flying off the handle yet. just giving their opinions so others than chew on it.

Lets clear some thing up about general maximus that is general knowledge.

He is a dwarf
He is a lover of his ancestors, dragons
He wields the power of the dragons through the use of dragon stones (he is not an arcane and never said he was)
He was a Helfury, but after the first event I relized my mistake that one cannot play a Helfury in FH. It just won't work. So I rewrote my charcter history and RP with Woden and join the Helmsplitter clan
Lastly, it is public knowledge that the general swore on his honor that he would not hurt, kill, etc any member of the town unless they attacked him first. that was done his first event and why the general has done nothing against amagus.

Now on to nelkie,
Yes, I created a new character that would have ended up with Vince and Eric, my good friends OOG, which I love to play this game with. I come to FH to have fun and I have fun roleplaying and fighting with them, SO I joined their group. I didn't give any pretense of where I was going to end up. Would it have made any difference if I waited 2 sessions to join there group or do it right off? No it doesn't. Call it chessy, I realy don't care, it's about haveing fun and it's hard enough for me to get time to make it to the game. I want to have the most fun in the game as possible so I joined the group that would give me that. It's that simple. And I'm always open to roleplay and interact with everyone else in town. To date, I don't think I have snub anyone a roleplay experience that wanted to roleplay with me. So are you all upset I decided to do what is right and fun for me? If so, that's your problem not mine.

And Chris is correct, I'm the only person who blantely came in as a new character to be part of an existing group. Other's have done it to, but where not a blant as me. Everyone else in the Order have joined Via roleplaying reasons, and yes there has been much roleplaying to create this new group.

I would like to make a point, when Corbyn stepdown, he made it very clear to the new concile what he was creating. So if people don't know what the Order is about, ask your concile leader, or ask a member of the order. Roleplay with them instead of jumping to conculisions.

As for my intial question about amagus, I want to see what people thought wheres about Amagus issue. I have my own opinion about the stituation in town, but people can find that out in game. But my intial thoughts where proven correct by peoples comments and posts.

GM_Chris wrote:And that is a good point you need a baseline.

I have a pretty good idea what Vince's character and other long term characters would do and I have not had one disappointment.

Really, then you must have been the only GM that didn't think Atrum would take ED's deal. And I highkly doubt that, since the beginning of the game you thought Atrum was neutral evilish when he's always been much more lawful (remembering that doesn't mean following anyone elses laws other than their own) evil.

Ask Grok, Jux, Roland, Nuk, Donovan, Robin, Ug, Corbyn and quite a few more people that I actually rp'd with if they thought Atrum would have taken ED's deal and some may have hesitated for abit but they probably would have said no.

Not saying I am perfect. I am saying I have not seen ANYONE overtly do something against their characters nature simply because of an OOG relationship.

It might be true that some people hang around with people in game they hang around with out of game, but it isnt a big deal. Infact every character does it and no one is above it. Not even the 4 people mentioned by Tonia.

In case their is confusion about what I am trying to say throughout this giant post I will spell it out.

Don't worry about the speck in your FH buddies eye when you have a plank in your own.

That is really all I have to say. I am guilty of doing it, I am trying to stop. Other GM's may be guilty of it time to time and they are tying to stop. Players need to stop worring about what everyone else is doing and worry about what they are doing.

Infact I heard a wise man say he would hold a person's ability to be a good sport WAY higher than their ability to RP.

General Maximus wrote:Sharing of resources? Why did it not happen last session? Nobody asked to my knowledge or even suggested it. So what happened to grand idea?

Donovan did touch on the idea to be Communists and pile all of our Resources together and make sure everyone was taken care of. But, he told us upfront that the Elder's Order would have nothing to do with it. Thus, no one came to you to ask for your 'assistance'.

Then Donovan left for his walkabout. So much for Communism, huh?

GM_Chris wrote:Don't worry about the speck in your FH buddies eye when you have a plank in your own.

Nobody is worrying about anything. I've already said multiple times there is nothing that can or SHOULD be done about it. But I have the right to point to it as an observation to explain a phenomenon that somebody questioned. No reason to manipulate quotes from the bible into LARP speak.

I hesitate to join this conversation as it seems to have degraded to bad feelings and no positive outcome, however, I can't let Aaron stand all alone.

General Maximus wrote: And Chris is correct, I'm the only person who blantely came in as a new character to be part of an existing group. Other's have done it to, but where not a blant as me. Everyone else in the Order have joined Via roleplaying reasons, and yes there has been much roleplaying to create this new group.

Actually... you're not the only one. *hug* I'll be honest... I missed the people I used to LOVE role playing with as Robin. I felt I got plot screwed, though through actions of my own, and lost role playing that made the game fun for me. As I larp to HAVE fun, I made a new character who was designed to play WITH THAT GROUP. On purpose. Yup... did the same thing as Nelkie. Why? Because I only get to see those people, most of them, AT events, and I pay $25 to enjoy myself. I enjoy playing with them, and so feel NO guilt what-so-ever. My being a part of the Order rains on no one's parade, nor does it keep them from role playing to their fullest abilities.

Now, I also have a character on the COMPLETE opposite side of the spectrum as well. Vaun and Orien could not be more different. Vaun hates Corbyn and his Order, will have nothing to do with them. When I play her, I get to play with another group of people and have fun with them. When I play Vaun, I in no way infringe on anyone's role playing, and again, I pay my $25 to have a good time, which I never fail to do.

My point, you wonder? Two characters which I play, both on opposite sides of the PC dynamic, as it were. No matter WHO I play, the only one it really makes a difference to is ME. Sure, the Order will miss Orien when I play Vaun, but it does not INFRINGE on their role playing freedom when I do. Same goes for Atrum's crew when I play Vaun.

So, why on earth does anyone give a s**t with which group anyone else plays? If you wanna role play with them, then do so. Regareldss of who their friends are in or out of game, you always have that freedom if you persue it. People come to have fun and see their friends... Is that So wrong? In the end, isn't that the point of larp to begin with?

Hmm I am way confused

If you see an issue yet feel NOTHING should be done about it then what is the purpose of bringing it up. Usually when someone brings something up it is because they see it as a problem, and usually problems need to be rectified.

Sooo please help me to understand why it was brought up.

As for the bible quote, it is a good quote, and relevant to the point. You took certain people and held them as the standard of how things should be. Other people I know agree with you and simply have not voiced their opinion. On the flip side other people say their way is good and hold them up as an example of how things should be. Sometimes this is good and needs to be done to better everyone and other times it only leads to division.

In this discussion there have been some great points made on both sides of the issue, and on some things there has been just finger pointing. (On both sides of the issue)

The GM's, and I asked, do not see anything wrong with how anyone is playing their character. Basically, none of us have really anything to contribute here, except myself, which is to watch the finger pointing. Since I know you and others do not mean to finger point I just wanted to make sure it was realized that comments could be read that way.