Monks and Fists

Post by **WayneO42** » Tue May 17, 2005 11:47 am

I really dont see a problem with the monk discipline. I think the addition of the ranged block skill really evened them out nicely.

Kidwynn · Post by **Kidwynn** » Tue May 17, 2005 11:48 am

K, I've been keeping queit for awhile just sitting back and reading everything.

I'm of the camp that if it ain't broke don't fix it and seriously the rules and all are doing well just the way they are. If there are any problems I'd say bring it up during the off season when the NPCs will want to go over the year in review and take a gander at all the rules.

As for the debates and all that get a little personal, come on guys, well all basically get along with and like each other so please don't personally attack each other. One can make a point without trying to insult or whatever the other peson.

It's just a game and I know I go not only for the thrill of the adventure, but because I like hanging out with and having all sorts of fun with you all.

dier_cire · Post by **dier_cire** » Tue May 17, 2005 1:02 pm

The rules are fine because I missed the first event and haven't looked at them till now.

Post by Ug » Tue May 17, 2005 1:27 pm

Julie wrote:I'm of the camp that if it ain't broke don't fix it and seriously the rules and all are doing well just the way they are. If there are any problems I'd say bring it up during the off season when the NPCs will want to go over the year in review and take a gander at all the rules.

WayneO wrote:
Nelkie wrote:First, as stated by the NPC's, no rule changes will take effect until the new session, 2006 unless there is a serious game unbalancing rule issue. Using fist is not.
100% correct. We may "grant" this ability to a few players to play test at an event but it will not be a global change until the new season.This is, however, a good time to be discussing it as to avoid a rushed discission

Onimaster · Post by **Onimaster** » Tue May 17, 2005 2:26 pm

WayneO42 wrote:I really dont see a problem with the monk discipline. I think the addition of the ranged block skill really evened them out nicely.

There isn't a 'problem' with the discapline...

I wanted to look into alternative options just to see what else would be interesting as far as improvements, and alternatives, as long as we were already talking about monks and hand to hand. I think monk works the way it is, but it just feels off to me as the catch all for hand to hand. In truth the monk skill seems more like the unarmed druid/priest. I was thinking of writing/suggesting a second hand to hand discapline to offer an alternatice choice that represented more of the martial artist/warrior unarmed philosophy. Like maybe "Ninja, Martial Artist, or Pugelist".

Being a rule mechanic grease monkey is something I find entertaining, and don't subscribe to the idea of not tinkering with rules that already work to improve game performance, or sow ideas for future project's reaping.

The unskilled unarmed rule was one I think was a problem though...

Post by **WayneO42** » Tue May 17, 2005 2:55 pm

I was thinking of writing/suggesting a second hand to hand discapline to offer an alternatice choice

Ok, lets take a look at some ideas for a discipline or two that has hand to hand fighting. I think it would be cool to come up with two. One that is Common and one that is Savage. For Savage I was thinking of something like a berserker:

Level 1: Hand to Hand (Can Fight with one fist Phys rep and block. Off hand must be free)
Level 2: Combat Reflexes (2 AP)
Level 3: Advanced Hand to Hand (Can use two Dagger sized fist Phys reps)
Level 4: Fists of Fury (Spend 1 LP to gain Plus one with fists but all damage is crush. Cannot be used with Rage Skill)

dier_cire · Post by **dier_cire** » Tue May 17, 2005 3:16 pm

For this one, I'd say the level 4 skill is a little weak. I'd make it +1 damage flat out and limit the discipline to light armor. Comparing it to swashbuckler you have:

undisarmable (level 1) vs. disarm (lvl 3) makes sense that the defense is lower level
florentine (level 2) vs avanced hand to hand (level 3) close enough, a tad weaker
2 AP (level 2) vs. taunt (level 1) probably a bit more powerful balancing out the previous skill.
vorpal vs. fury vorpal goes through armor and can be used with rage, this is +1 damage. Both take crush.

But all in all, a savage discipline with hand to hand would be nice. (we could always add monk to savage, there's really no combos with it as far as I remember)

cole45 · Post by **cole45** » Tue May 17, 2005 3:26 pm

So this Savage warrior Discapline we are talking about. Two weapons and a +1 to damage? I'm not sure how swinging two, two damage fists compares to swinging two vorpal weapons. (having not seen that much in combat.)

Derick had mentioned Lash as a potential. That's not a bad combo given that lash only goes 5 feet.

Post by **WayneO42** » Tue May 17, 2005 3:39 pm

As long as I have breath, Lash will not be a melee skill

Post by **WayneO42** » Tue May 17, 2005 3:54 pm

Level 4: Fists of Fury
A character may spend 1 LP to gain +1 damage with fists, however, all incoming damage is considered crush. This skill may be used in conjunction with the rage skill.

Kidwynn · Post by **Kidwynn** » Tue May 17, 2005 3:55 pm

Go Wayne, I'm on board with that.

dier_cire · Post by **dier_cire** » Tue May 17, 2005 4:09 pm

Agreed, lash should never be a player skill.

and ultimately, swinging two weapons with vorpal gains you very little, as you can't block and it's physically impossible to say "one (or two) vorpal" fast enough to use them in any other fashion. Granted, if you are on the caught off guard and on recieving end you'll feel 10 hits and only hear 5 calls, and probably drop due to the fact you have no idea how many times you got hit.

Onimaster · Post by **Onimaster** » Tue May 17, 2005 9:13 pm

WayneO42 wrote:Level 4: Fists of Fury
A character may spend 1 LP to gain +1 damage with fists, however, all incoming damage is considered crush. This skill may be used in conjunction with the rage skill.

I thought you were trying to get away from damage calls of 3, and would that mean that you would need to use the pfist 2 handed? I think it would be too potent to have an ability to machine gun 3 even at very close range.

Why so adamant against lash as a melee ability? I mean I'm not hot on the idea, but under the implication of a spinning roundhouse kick I could see it functionally to represent the character action.

Also, some people have said they are hesitant to make more savage disciplines as they are starting to rival common in number, and the biggest thing common had going for it was the larger number of selections to choose from. I was thinking the second hand to hand could stay common, I have already talked to Wayne about the possibility of a savage Florentine/dual weapon discipline to offset swashbuckler (sent him the writeup earlier today to look at.), and then maybe another new Privileged just to keep the ratios intact. Then again, it would be nice to have a savage unarmed skill to...

Post by **GM_Chris** » Tue May 17, 2005 9:17 pm

Here are my thoughts

1) People want to fist people because of disarm and shatter so I propose to remove both calls from the game. We keep having issues with disarm and we never use shatter so why not remove them make everything simplier and then people can cary a weapon.

2) Ok what the heck is the point of a fisting people every 5 count WOW that is lame why would you want that. I mean please tell me how you would get more than 1 off unless you were in a group and if you are in a group then why the hell do you needto fist people because you would have other people to fight.

My suggestion assuming people dont like the first one which is the one I am more in favor of.

"Unarmed combat is a charged skill. It takes a 5 count to initiate unarmed combat and it allows you to swing 1 damage with one fist phys rep (see page 13123 for an explanation on a fist phys rep). You may swing damage as much as you want, but as with any charged skill damage taken will disrupt your skill and another 5 count will be needed before you may use your fist again. You cannot block with a fist phys rep and any damage that is blocked is considered crush."

dier_cire · Post by **dier_cire** » Tue May 17, 2005 9:43 pm

See I don't see disarm as a big deal. Especially for any warrior build (which should include parry). I think this is more of the someone wanted to fight someone in a drunken brawl and someone else wondered what they could do when they had no weapon... If there was a concern with disarm then they should have been warriors...

Chris, I like your addition, and see it as at least a valid option for a couple of imprisoned people to gank an unobservant guard. I'm guessing that damage blocked would include blocking with a shield (if per chance the user had a shield but no weapon) so it's drop the shield if you want to deal damage with a fist... (still don't fully get that but eh, whatever, it's not a real issue)