Wrapping backstab and shield size commentary

[Wyrmwrath]

If the spirit and intention of the rules is to be warped so as to allow wrapping of backstabs, I assume parry will also now be effective against such attacks, since wrapping makes a backstab frontal melee damage...?!

To say you need to wrap around a shield to beat it, in a system with elf empath booms , empath sleep, druid root, alchemical gasses, archers with vorpal attacks, and a few other shield beating attacks, is untrue. For a THIEF to beat the shield, wrapping mat be "neseccary", but thieves arent supposed to be facing the shield, they are supposed to attack from behind. If a thief is facing a shield he/she SHOULD be at a heavy disadvantage. That doesnt make wrapping a basckstab safe or in line with the concept of the skill. The run by backstab falls into this catagory as well. The "plane0of-the-shoulder" rule is designed to ensure the backstabb is initiated from the back. There will ALWAYS be "yes I did, no you didnt" conflicts in LARP combat, to say a rule wont work because of such disagreements is insufficient reason. Its supposed to be an honor system, remember.
The back stab is intended to be used from the back, if it wasnt it would be called "awesome-attack-that-can-be-initated-from-anywhere". The orcs that have the thief path had no problem using thier backstab many times last event, but they weren't trying to be front line fighting thieves either. They stuck to the role they designed into thier PCs when they took that path.

Shields do give an huge and unrealistic advantage to the user in a LARP. The only way to deflate this is to limit thier size. The two methods that have worked best, either sperately or together, in all of the 6 or 7 systems I have been involved in are:

1) No taller than shoulder height of kneeling player, and no wider than shoulders of same player(unless its a round shield).

2) Shields are limited to 864 square inches and cannot exceed 36" in any one direction. Bucklers may be 10" to 15" diameter. Note that these overall sizes include any padding or edging applied to the shield. All shields are required to have 5/8" around the entire border.

Allowing backstab to be used with a wrapping attack because it's too hard to use, is no different than allowing the warrior barbarian to throw packets for 2 crush or warrior swashbucklers to throw packets for 2 vorpal because they are to hard to use without getting hit. The are supposed to be hard to use, hence the reason why the downside is written into the skill.

[Tonia Glowski]

Yeah! What he said!!!

[Ug]

Allow me to further clarify and define my stance on backstab:

Should a thief be allowed to hit from anywhere, just so long as the attack hits the back, the damage is taken?

Yes.

Is wrapping safe and should it be allowed for any sort of attack at all?

No.

Does this also somewhat depend on one's definition of wrapping?

A bit. But this mostly depends on shields.

[Peace420]

I never said a rule wouldn't work I only said that it would cause OOG arguments which if can be avoided easily should be. I was only talking melee fighting not booms, poison gas etc (BTW vorpal doesn't beat a shield). And I never said that a backstab should be done in face to face melee combat in fact I think that its utter cheese, but having a rule that is so subjective and open for argument is just asking for trouble, things like lash are subjective enough. In playtesting there was testing of triangulation with packets and I think they went away from that for the same reasons.

Shield wrap: completely different issue
In melee combat, not special skill combat there are only a few ways to beat a shield that is a fact, wrap, feint, dual wield, and just being better than the other person (you could include ankle biting in there as well but that's another form of gouda). Wrapping does increase the chance of injury slightly, but so does fighting shield and short sword. Truthfully bows are the most dangerous thing on the field, if safety is the concern then bows should be in question. I think they are safe enough if the arrows are constructed correctly and some common sense is used when shooting them. On the field I'd rather see real bows and arrows than packets though. I don't think we should start eliminating valid combat techniques because of slightly increased chance of injury, we already have the no head shot rule, which I completely agree with, and using blunt weapons you are taught if there is an opening bash the skull in. I know LARP combat and "real" combat are different, the only weapon I've been formally trained with is staff and I tell you, you absolutely cannot use the staff the way it is taught.

[GM_Chris]

I just dont like frontal back stabs which I think increasing the time to a 10 count would solve.


As for wrapping..well perhaps there needs to be a clearer definition that charging. What sucks is when you are a short dude like me and some tall guy comes over top of you to wrap and you are unable to move your shield to block without bashing the guy in the chin. Not sure how to fix that.

Let me add as well...should we add a backstab call? I ask because if you hit me for damage but I hit you first and you didnt notice then I should know not to take the hit. My brain works slow if I was a theif I would definitly hit them after being hit.


Chris

[Ug]

I just dont like frontal back stabs which I think increasing the time to a 10 count would solve.

Wouldn't that be powering down the rogues a bit? Do their backstabs really need to be powered down?

As for wrapping..well perhaps there needs to be a clearer definition that charging. What sucks is when you are a short dude like me and some tall guy comes over top of you to wrap and you are unable to move your shield to block without bashing the guy in the chin. Not sure how to fix that.

No problem. Let it be known that if I have a shield and a big dude decides to wrap over top of me because I am a short dude, I'll bash him in the chin with my shield. *shrug* I'll have to look over the charging rules for FH. That is what I would do at CARPS anyhow. If you wrap me, you are no longer leading with your weapon, thus charging, thus if I smack you in the chin, it is not my fault.

Let me add as well...should we add a backstab call? I ask because if you hit me for damage but I hit you first and you didnt notice then I should know not to take the hit. My brain works slow if I was a theif I would definitly hit them after being hit.

Chris

New calls suck, but if the rule is that you have to hit them in the back, I think you should have to call backstab (or surprise, or somethin).

[Wyrmwrath]

1) I do not think the backstab needs a longer time, thereby making it harder for the thief to get a backstab off. I DO think there should be well defined rules about the method of delivery. Here is an example of such:

To use this skill, the attacker must be behind the “square of the shoulders”. This attack must be struck from behind. The victim is not immune to the attack simply because he was aware of the attacker being behind them.

I would even go so far as to suggest making the level of backstab 3, 6, and 9 damage; make it vorpal; only usable from behind the "square" of the shoulders; and only usable wit ha bladed weapon of short size or smaller. This would make it worthwhile for the thief to use the skill the way its intended.

2) I truly have little gripe with wrapping a hit, I think its a valid tactic IF everyone is being safe. Its the wrapping of attacks that should come from the back that I have issue with. Where problems occur is when the definition of charging and the penalty for doint it arent well defined. It causes players to fail to really understand the dangers of charging, or outright ignore them (and try full on body blocks and similar) since there is no penalty. Here is an example of a clear definition and penalty used in another system, although I dont nessecarily agree with the definition:

Charging is when a player gets too close to you in combat. Actually comming in contact with you (person to person) is clearly charging, but is not required to get called on charging. If at any time a player gets closer than weapon reach while in combat, they are charging. Simply inform them "Charging! Take two blows of X damage (or whatever your normal damage call is at that time)". They will be required to take those hits and are not allowed to call defenses on them. If you are chasing someone while running in a combat situation, you are required to follow at a safe distance such that if they suddenly stop, you can as well without getting too close. If they stop, no matter how fast, and you run into them, you are guilty of charging, not them. Anyone who is running backwards and runs into someone, or even gets too close is also charging.

3) As for new calls, I hear many FH players state they dont like new calls. It confuses me, since a new call that doesnt relate to a new skill/power/ability means clearer definition in the rules. Since FH is still an infant as LARPs go, I would think you would expect new/different calls and rules after every off season so taht the rules work better. Keep in mind, FH has the simplest rule set around, sometimes you actualy have to add complexity/structure to keep these things simple and clear. I can understand not likeing new calls once the system has been polished and playeed for some time, but with less than a dozen events under its belt, the game is still a baby. Think of it as growing pains.

[Ug]

CARPS Definition of Charging / CARPS Code of Combat:

Code: Select all

Charging is not allowed. There are two rules to follow. First, you must always lead with a weapon. If you do not lead with a weapon, you are charging. Second, there can be no physical contact. If a player is leading with a weapon and hits you with his body, he is charging. However, if someone is coming at you and you continuously back away, they are not considered to be charging. It will become charging if at any point you stop backing away and the other person continues to move towards you and makes physical contact with you. This is similar to basketball rules that define charging.

The CARPS combat system is structured to focus on melee combat; not hand-to-hand combat, grappling, or wrestling. During the course of combat, grappling, wrestling, or hand-to-hand fighting is not allowed. Therefore, there is no reason to move any closer to your opponent than an arm's length away. Please be very aware of this when fighting with a shield. You are not allowed to hit another person with a shield.

Pinning weapons is also not allowed. There is almost no way to free your weapon without grappling.

[Wyrmwrath]

I think the "lead with a weapon" is a bit vague, but its obvious t he concept is the same. With this definition wrapping is still leading with a weapon, but brings the players in close proximity, and makes for possible safety issues.

I noticed that the current FH definition is a cut and paste of the CARPS one. I in no way think it is a bad policy, just vague in my opinion.

[GM_Chris]

HEHE yeah the charging rule has not changed since we started CARPS.
Thus why we used it.

Chris

[Ug]

If you wrap, you are no longer leading with a weapon.

ie: If your body is in front of the other PC, but your weapon is behind them, you are no longer leading with your weapon are you?

[The Jackal]

ie: If your body is in front of the other PC, but your weapon is behind them, you are no longer leading with your weapon are you?

Why? Are you holding your weapon out behind you as you do a Waterboy-esque head lunge? If you are attacking with your weapon you are fundamentally leading with it. As a matter of fact I would go as far as to say that to "wrap" you would be further exaggerating the leading in order to get around behind.

Don't make new rules for this the fix is simple. If a theif wraps for backstab ignore the damage and take the nice open target left and do some of your own, "non-cheesy" damage.

I am not against wrapping. It is a valid fighting technique. It just shouldn't be allowed to be used with a specifically designed rear attack. Just ignore the damage if it hits. Same as being hit in the face/hands/ ignore it and move along.

*spellin edit

[dier_cire]

Well, hmm, since I missed half this conversation...

First I think upping the count and allowing the wrap around backstab is probably the easiest and simplest method to fix Chris's issue. A that point it will be difficult (more so than it already is) to have time to charge and deliver the hit without getting touched in a frontal melee situation. As well, it limits a rooted/feared, etc person to only being hit once per effect.

Secondly the issue of wrapping. Main issue of saftey here is mainly the loss of visual contact with the intended target area. This becomes very blatent in shield on shield combat. In these situations, the attacker loses sight of his target (the back) and if the defender raises his shield and/or ducks down, it becomes easy to hit the head. An important rule is to always know where your oppenents head is. If they duck, stop swinging. Wrapping is a bit on the dangerous side, but as was pointed out, far more safe than any arrow. At the sparring session a few weeks ago, I narrowly missed 3 head hits from arrows traveling a lot faster than anything I wanted to get hit with. But as was also stated, I'd never give that up as it's just too much fun to be that crap in my pants scared from time to time.

Thirdly, I will state my protest to the square of the shoulders idea again. It's too much of a perception idea to work well without someone getting punched in the head. I've seen people getting into very real arguements over that very rule, which I'd prefer not to see here. We've managed to go quite awhile without arguements like that and I'd like to continue that.

As for the idea of a safe distance when chasing, hehe. Sounds good to me. You do realize that there are a fair number of people that can run pretty quick which means they should never be hit when running as they are outside safe distance from any swing. Charging happens from time to time. No big deal unless it's completely intentional. I was chasing Aaron a couple events ago and Chris moved around a tree to stop me. I couldn't stop and had to "gently" push him over with my shield. We reset and continued. I had no issue with it, I don't think Chris did either. I didn't expect him to move that way and I was in full sprint.

And finally, no Parry will never work on backstab. If you get hit in the back regardless of where the person is, you cannot parry. This includes wrapping, as they are hits to the back. As for the intended use of a skill, well guess what, there is no intended use for any skill. That is player choice. That's sort of like saying I have to act like a thief just cause I take the path. Um, no.

[The Jackal]

This includes wrapping, as they are hits to the back. As for the intended use of a skill, well guess what, there is no intended use for any skill. That is player choice. That's sort of like saying I have to act like a thief just cause I take the path. Um, no.

There it is folks. Taking the literal interpretation of a skill in a rulebook, "because it doesn't say I can't". This is fundamentally the most detrimental ideal ever to set foot on the face of any kind of gaming, and thusly also the reason why people feel the need to flesh every corner of every rule out until it is in a virtual spotlight.

It doesn't matter who you are you have an idea as to what a backstab might entail. It is a calculated attack, a precision attack, in which your goal is to inflict greater damage to an unprotected and unsuspecting area. If you think it is other than this, you must be retarded. Wrapping is a desperate one on one melee technique against a shield bearing opponent. If these two previous sentences seem to paralell or mesh whatsoever I am retarded.

Dude. Its not about "acting like a thief because I took theif" or whatever. Its all about respect for the rules, the ideals, and the people that run this game. As individuals who live in real life, have real life obligations, and don't deserve to be rule-picked on a hobby they have chosen to provide. Work together OUT OF GAME to close loopholes and make gameplay smoother. Demonstrating loopholed rules during event days HURTS THE GAME. Period. Though preaching to the mentality you represent is like throwing stones at a plexi-glass house.

Play fair, use common sense.

Or as is being demonstrated by the most vocal, I guess it is more of an uncommon sense.

[Tonia Glowski]

I love you, myLenk...