dier_cire wrote:Seems like a whole lot of words to appease something that is a pure roleplaying aspect.
Wow, just looked over a few more pages. The people without weapons had many skills they could use and warriors are invaluable with or without a weapon.
It is not a pure roleplaying aspect of the game! Roleplaying is persona; battle is mechanics flavored by roleplaying.
Talking is roleplaying... Walking around is roleplaying... anything where someone gets HURT should have a mechanical representation backing it up. Otherwise we could walk onto the field of battle, talk out of character for five minutes, and decide who beat who before walking back off again. Life points are the physreps of our essance and well-being. Without a rule like this someone could just *decide* that they are made of magic meat only weapons or trained monks could cause them pain having Ka and all the biggest warriors in gaven punching and kicking him for hours just laughing and prattling on about how invincible his skin was, and there would be no mechanical way to prove them wrong short of the GMs calling him a jerk and tossing him out of the game without actually having broken a rule.
Vaal Draconus,
Dwarven King
Survivor of the Dreaming
& Champion of Life.
WayneO42 wrote:The operative phrase is safe body area. There are legal and illegal target areas on the body for out of game safety reason. I dont want to muddy the waters by then adding mechanical ways to make certain area's "Illegal" targets. This detracts from the game and adds confusion.
Global damage systems are in place to simulate that not every blow struck on an opponent lands the same place in-game as out of game.
Example: You are hiding perfectly still in the darkness for an hour. Finally a lone elf walks close enough without noticing you. You quickly strike out at the elf with your magic Twinky stick of doom calling "30 Crush". Out-of-game You aim for the forearm of the elf with your swing because it is the legal target area you can see the clearest (even thought the elfs head is well within reach and view). The elf happens to be a monk so he ignores your damage and begins the beat down. In Character the blow would have been to the head but as a responsible player you chose a legal target area that you deemed the safest to strike. As you lay on the ground counting out your minute before you bleed to death you have time to contimplate unlearning some skills and picking up second level monk.
I agree with you there on mudding the waters with safe areas. I hadn’t considered all the things the safe areas were immune to, the reason I went that way is that I was going to suggest allowing blocking with bracers Wonder Woman style, but hit the wall of armor/weapon functionality. Is there a way lvl 2 monks could have bracers not count as armor but as a ‘blocking physrep’ or 3 point Tiny shield to accomplish the same effect I was going for, but not count as a weapon or armor? And if you went for the “Lvl 2 Monks may choose to count a bracer on the same hand as a pfist as a Tiny shield (3 point strength). Any bracer this skill is used on no longer adds to armor for the purposes of total limb coverage and armor points.” The only problem with that is the technicality of wearing two shields at once, but they are pretty weak as a master warrior can smash them and normal shields are feaking huge so it kind of equals out... Even in the most extreme combination of abilities (Monk + man at Arms) this configuration isn't over powered because no matter how strong the bracers are it's super easy to get around them compared to normal shields.
The other idea I had was to swap out the death trance idea for Parry as if you watch martial artists fight almost half of it is blocking incoming blows.
Vaal Draconus,
Dwarven King
Survivor of the Dreaming
& Champion of Life.
A skill that is only useful by two people facing off without any weapons is more or less pure roleplaying. This skill concept has zero use in regular combat as it takes too long and does too little damage to be of any use. Especially, after I actually started reading this year's rules. There's quite a few options to someone without a weapon.
This whole thing was brought about wanting to "throw a punch at some slob in a bar..." and "beating on things with bare fists as a last ditch". Well, you still have no last ditch, really. And the bar fight is roleplaying. I call it a waste of ink, a smart fighter will never use it. Course, looking over the rules, there's a lot more thats broken, so I'm conceding for lack of caring anymore.
dier_cire wrote:A skill that is only useful by two people facing off without any weapons is more or less pure roleplaying. This skill concept has zero use in regular combat as it takes too long and does too little damage to be of any use. Especially, after I actually started reading this year's rules. There's quite a few options to someone without a weapon.
This whole thing was brought about wanting to "throw a punch at some slob in a bar..." and "beating on things with bare fists as a last ditch". Well, you still have no last ditch, really. And the bar fight is roleplaying. I call it a waste of ink, a smart fighter will never use it. Course, looking over the rules, there's a lot more thats broken, so I'm conceding for lack of caring anymore.
I've been hearing about this debate for some time, and decided to put in my two cents.
You claim that with the current ruling that fighting with a pfist in combat without levels of monk would be useless and mostly roleplaying. I've got a question for you: Don't you think that might be the damned point? In combat against people wearing armor, carrying shields and wielding big sharp pointy-things, if you aren't trained in unarmed combat, YOU ARE GOING TO DIE. Thank you captain obvious, you get a gold star.
Hold up there a sec now. Let's not attack each other over this. We've got enough going on without having this turn ugly. People can disagree over the rules all they want, but let's keep the sniping to a minimum.
One should rather die than be betrayed. There is no deceit in death. It delivers precisely what it has promised. Betrayal, though ... betrayal is the willful slaughter of hope.
Thank you Taki for the clear headed reply, and folks he is right. We as a group have so much to offer as a whole. That some of us including myself need to take a step back and breathe. If not for the fact it helps clear the mind. It also helps everyone come to a better understanding of what they would like to see in the game. I know I am not the most leveled headed and clearly spoken person around. Yet I would like to see what everyone has to say without reverting to jimmy kicking and bloggin someone for having a thought, or a voice. Once again Taki thank you.
That which we seek form without. Is what we seek form within. An if shall only be found once you understand yourself.
lv1. Iron Fists I think that you should be able to block and attack with your fists right away to show the extensive training a monk has to go through.
lv2. Deflect arrows More to show the monk's training this ability is good but only at certain times.
lv3. Circle kick spend to life points to do 2 lash.
lv4. meditation
i also approve of the bracer shield.
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Dereck Sandoval
Ex-Healer of the Black Talons
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Dereck_Sandoval wrote:I Have an idea that sort of pertains to this
I bealive that monk should be written as so
lv1. Iron Fists I think that you should be able to block and attack with your fists right away to show the extensive training a monk has to go through.
lv2. Deflect arrows More to show the monk's training this ability is good but only at certain times.
lv3. Circle kick spend to life points to do 2 lash.
lv4. meditation
i also approve of the bracer shield.
Ehhh, I think that sounds too powerful. The abilities are too strong for the way you set them and then to keep death trance on top of it sweetens the pot way too much.
I think that deflect arrows is way too potent to be a second level ability, and the same for a lash for a 3rd lvl (Maybe as a 4th... And, I assume you meant spend 2 LP to do 2 non-magical lash)
I don't know if you meant it that way, but if the bracer idea is adopted it would need to be part of the discipline to use them that way I think...
Vaal Draconus,
Dwarven King
Survivor of the Dreaming
& Champion of Life.
The way the skill is writen is fine. I personaly believe it is non value added and might come into play 1% of the time, but if that is what people want, than make it so.
I still have not got my question answer yet, does a weapon need to be crafted to swing 1 damage, or can you go into the woods and find a piece of wood to swing 1 damage??
Glad there's always someone to put things into perspective...
And to be honest, yeah, I'm extremely harsh on skills but if I went easy on skills, we'd probably still be able to do 8 seemingly at will.
As for monk, currently is there something wrong with the discipline? Granted, fists used to be more powerful back when disarm couldn't be parried, but it also gained ranged immunity which is probably one of the best 3rd level skills in the game. They aren't the most offensive monster, but they can hold their own. Only thing I'd even consider adding is changing level 2 to let them effectively have dagger sized claws for fists. Increases range from 6" to 18". Should balance them out nicely.
I am inclined to agree with Dier_cire on this one. The monk's existing skill base seems okay. I like the shield/bracer bits just because it is fairly cool. But it seems like you'd have to add some rules about the bracers you can use, and what not. As for the Monk with Parry. Parry is so high level of an ability it seems like it should never be seen in a discipline. add to it, two uses of Parry don't help you. (Unlike Press.)
Likewise I think Monk is just fine as is, ans fists should not be a useable weapon for characters without this discipline.
I don't believe a fistfight between non-monks has ever occurred in game. I don't see a need for rules for something that's never happened.
Two players are currently preplanning a fist fight for the next event. They can also preplan how they will play it out. They can work out rules for use between themselves during this one time ordeal, or simply corriograph the whole thing before hand (at least until they are knocked unconcious by rogues).
If you want to be able to punch in-game, you can always purchase 1st level monk.
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